A Dance with Dragons: part 3 of 3.

[alexandral]

The third part of the book was the best , most likely because all the characters are back !



Jon:

Finishing the book, I am convinced that Jon's part in ADWD is a mirror of Ned's part in A Game of Thrones, and it ends in a similar way. Martin seems to like to write about fatal mistakes. Jon seems to have moments of wisdom and makes some really good decisions, but at the end, he wastes it all with the decision that rivals worst of Ned's, Robb's, and Cat's mistakes in it's recklessness. And of course, the situation in the Night's Watch was incendiary due to the wildlings joining the Night Watch, so deciding to quit it all in this very unstable moment and march to Winterfell was something that can only be called madness (for the point of reference, Jon's intention to go ranging to Hardhome was a very very bad decision too).

My apologies to Jon's fans on my friends list, I want him dead. I am getting wary of the impending "Dany and Jon rule the Westeros together". And why Jon has to survive when Ned and Robb had to pay for their mistakes? Why Catelyn had to turn into an evil zombie? What is special about Jon? I want no resurrections and no Azor Ahai re-born. It is interesting, however, that what brings his downfall is something he tried to do so many times - his attempt to leave the Night's Watch and his position. He never actually accepted that he doesn't belong to himself anymore.

I am quite annoyed at him for not paying any notice to Melisandre as well. Ok, Jon, I may "understand" your religious intolerance because it is so common in Westeros, but when you see some solid proof that Melisandre does actually see some truth in her fires? Listen to a female, for once! Keep Ghost with you!

On Stannis and his fate

I am convinced that Ramsay is bluffing and Stannis is fine. Otherwise, how Ramsay does not know that Theon and Jeyne joined Stannis? The crazy guy is bluffing. I shudder to think of the fate of Mance Rayder and his spear wives, though.

Cersei

I might turn into a big fan of Cersei. I loved her chapters. The way she dealt with her "punishment" made me respect her, and she is always a good read. What a strong woman. I even relate to her somehow. Plus, the Zombie Mountain as Ser Robert Strong? This is so scary, but good scary!

Quentyn

As much as I liked Quentyn, note to self: do not try to steal a dragon.

Dany

I am really glad Dany's story has started getting somewhere at the end of the book, but I am still not that enthusiastic. It took a whole book for her to realise that dragons need training (wasn't this obvious from the start, that she needed to train the dragons from their young age?) and that she does not belong in Meereen? And she still doesn't seem to realise what kinds of disasters she has inflicted on Meereen, Astaphor and other cities by her actions? It was all her own doing, all of it! Utopias do not work! Hopefully she will start going somewhere - but what if we have her riding with Khal Jhaqo for the whole of the next book?

Also - Daario!!! I hope he was one of those corpses that the Yunkish were using in their trebuchets. One mentioning of his beautiful gold tooth and I am going to be sick. I have a feeling Martin was trolling his readers here, he was going on and on and on about the beauty of the gold tooth a little too much. Or does Martin have a gold tooth fetish?

Barristan Selmy

His chapters were wonderful, they gave us such a great inside into his character, as well as some interesting information about the past. I have argued once that I believe one thing: Barristan Selmy would have never laid a finger on Sansa, even if he was ordered by Joffrey. Even if he would have stayed in King's Landing (if Joffrey didn't dismiss him) , Barristan would have refused to beat a child. He would have gone against his "king". By that time Barristan was tired turning the blind eye to everything that was happening in King's Landing, tired to obey the orders of drunkards and crazies, and this would have been a "straw that broke the camel's back". I am convinced of this after ADWD.

Regarding the past: I don't think Ned was the father of Ashara Dayne's baby, and Barristan never actually said "Ned", he said "Stark boy". But is it my love for Ned talking, the fact that I can't believe that "my Ned" was able of abandoning the mother of his child? It was Ned who danced with Ashara at Harrenhal. But it was Brandon Stark who talked to Ashara for Ned!

Victarion

Victarion's were one of the best chapters for me, because they were linked with the magic side of the series. I think Victarion is the corpse captain in Dany's prophesy. The corpse Captain might be someone else, for example, Euron, but my bets are on Victarion, for two reasons. The main reason is that Dany needs the Iron Fleet, and I can't quite picture Euron captaining the fleet. The second reason is that the corpse captain in the prophesy smiles sadly, and again, I can't quite see Euron smiling sadly, he is not that type.

On black cat with a torn ear

I agree with the opinion that the cat that is mentioned in Kevan's chapter is Princess Rhaena's little black kitten. The cat is the right age (old for a cat which makes him over 10) , and there is no coincidence that this cat is mentioned again and again (this cat was the same cat that Arya used to chase in her days with Syrio).

Epilogue

Varys is the one of the main players in the Game of Thrones, and he appears at the end, killing poor sensible Kevan Lannister. What a pity, he was such a good Hand.

PS if I have to chose a religion in Westeros, it will be either the Old Gods (I am a Northern girl) or R'hllor , because both Melisandre and Moqorro seem to be quite powerful.

Comments

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

- Jon: much as I hate Melisandre, he should have listened to her warnings. I don't want him dead, though. I hate the idea of Jon being anything else but the Commander of the Night's Watch, and I will be seriously disappointed if he's a Targaryen and somehow ends up with Daenersy. BUT I finally find Jon an interesting character. He bored me to death for three books, and then he was really interesting for one book. I like ADWD!Jon, and I want to read more about him. I'd be so disappointed if I made it through three books of Jon being boring before he gets interesting, just to see him die the moment I start caring about him.
I will probably regret saying this when Jon's storyline continues and makes him the awesome hero of the series. Then I'll wish he had died. -.-

- Stannis must live. I still don't think he'll survive the series, but it would make no sense for him to die at this particular moment. I'm more and more getting the feeling that Stannis (and Aegon) will be the only king standing by the time Daenerys arrives. I'm not sure I like that idea, because GRRM would probably have Daenerys win.

- Cersei will never be not hilarious. I want her to survive as long as possible because she is so much fun.

- Daenerys, on the other hand, needed to die two books ago. And definitely now. GRRM's worst chapters, imo, on par with Brienne in AFFC.

- Interesting that you liked Barristan's chapters so much, because I was very disappointed by them. I had expected more from the chapters, and more from him. He had badass moments, of course, but overall I'm starting to think that Barristan is one of those people whose reputation makes him look bigger and better than he actually is.

- Victarion's chapters were epic. My biggest hope is that he will kill Daenerys, but I know that won't happen. *sigh* He's a bit like Cersei: batshit insane and so entertaining. I can't wait to see where his story is going. After Quentyn's failure, Victarion must be more successful: it would make no sense to have two similar "guy fails to steal the dragons" storylines.

- Kevan's death made me rage even more than Daenerys' chapters, and that's something.

Yay for the Old Gods! If I were a Westerosi, though, I'd go with Stannis and his pragmatic atheism: "I don't believe in anything, but I'll go with whatever is useful."

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I think I am with you on Jon - I didn't think his chapters were boring (I loved all the wildling stuff and sizzling with Stannis) , but the fact that he is this special character that can do all the mistakes he wants and won't even be killed makes me shout: NOT FAIR. If no-one is safe, the same should apply to Jon. Or at least, if he is resurrected by Melisandre, I would accept him turning into a zombie like Catelyn. BUT AZOR AHAI!! No!!!

In short, this rant is to say: I will be fine with Jon either somehow surviving naturally (what are his wildlings doing standing like statues?) and continuing his work near The Wall, or turning into an evil zombie that will attack the Nigth's Watch for their betrayal. NO AZOR AHAI.

I agree with you on Stannis - I thinks Stannis and Aegon will be the ones to live to meet Dany. But I don't ship Aegon and Dany anymore, I saw people shipping Aegon and Sansa and I think this can be great.
I keep raking my brain as to who Cersei's valonquar is. It will be beautifully melodramatic for her to die from Jaime's hand.
I am so disappointed

Barristan: why I loved his chapters is that he is really such a down-to-earth guy, and so humble. As much as I loved Ned, he always had that slight air of "I am holier than thou" about his POV (and this is one of the reasons I don't like Catelyn too, the air of "moral superiority"). But Barristan is such a dear, and he seems to be doing a good job as Dany's hand (much better than Ned ever did) exactly because he is listening to the others.
Again, in short - Barristan's humility is what I loved.

I honestly hope Victarion is going to turn into an evil zombie-helper of Dany's . This might spice her story a little. :D

Yay for the Old Gods! If I were a Westerosi, though, I'd go with Stannis and his pragmatic atheism: "I don't believe in anything, but I'll go with whatever is useful."

Lol, I think pragmatic atheism is better than that useless religion they call Seven . :D

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

I loved Jon's moments with Stannis, but the wildling stuff was rather boring to me. And I think as far as plot armour goes, Tyrion and Daenerys are WAY worse than Jon, and I'd rather see those two die than Jon. As of ADWD, Jon is one of the most interesting characters, imo, and I'd hate to see him go or turn into a zombie. That being said, I don't want him to be AA either (though I'd still prefer that to Daenerys being AA).

I really wondered about the wildlings, too. Did they just watch while the Night's Watch killed Jon? Makes no sense to me.

I'd be all for Aegon and Daenerys killing each other. ;) Nah, tbh, I don't want Daenerys to return to Westeros at all. But that's just wishful thinking, so honestly I think we will get some sort of Stannis-Daenerys-Aegon stand-off, maybe with Jon as well if GRRM does take him on the whole hero/AA/king in the North/secret Targaryen road. :/ DNW.

I hope Cersei will die because of Jaime, whether because he literally kills her or because he fails to save her I don't care. I think it's pretty obvious it won't be Tyrion. But there are so many other possibilities: it might just as well be Tommen, in some way, or Loras.

True, Barristan is humble, but maybe I was disappointed because he was so normal and flawed. Barristan was descibed as the paragon of knighthood by everyone, but to me he just seems like a rather weak guy with great fighting skills and little personality, who just attaches himself to someone he calls his king or queen and then switches off his own moral judgement. He's the perfect Kingsguard, but I don't think he's that great a knight.

Well, if Daenerys turns out to be the big bad (which I hope), she could work with Victarion, of course. That'd be epic.

Lol the Seven. ;) I love Stannis' story of how he lost his faith, it makes so much sense to me. I hate all those stories of "I started to believe in God BECAUSE something awful happened to me." Stannis' stance ("I stopped believing in the gods because any true, good gods would never have allowed that to happen") is so much closer to my own worldview. ;)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I think the wildlings are important. The war with others is going to start any minute, so they will on the front lines of the battlefield. And I liked all the funny stuff with Wun Wun and Tommen. And Val is lovely.

I like Tyrion, though . I just do. :D

I just wish Martin does what he did in "Fevre Dream" and that Azor Ahai idea will not work out the same way everyone wants it to work out.

There is nothing about the wildlings during the attack on Jon, but they were there: " Men poured from the surrounding keeps and towers. Northmen, free folk.." I kept thinking: are you all mad, people? Go and protect Jon! Or you are going to have a bloodbath following his assassination.

Coincidentally, I just realised that it is entirely possible that Stannis can be having conversations with Roose Bolton by now. :D

How do you see Loars in valonquar role? He is not related to Cersei?


Oh, I love it that Barristan is flawed. I also loved that at the end he begins to use his own judgement a little which is must have been .. hard? He is 63, and he has never done it before? I love how firm he is in protecting the little child hostages, for example. Compare this with Ned, for example, who must have had more opportunities to exercise his own judgement and still was so .. stiff?

I am going to hope that Daenerys is a BIG BAD. I WANT IT!

I am pragmatic - things work, I believe in them, things don't , I won't. :D I would have definitely checked that R'hllor.

[linndechir.livejournal.com]

Obviously the wildlings are important, and I rather liked their role in ADWD, but I found Jon's earlier storyline with the wildlings (in, what was it, ASOS? or already ACOK?) rather boring. I didn't find Jon himself very interesting, Ygritte was just annoying as hell, and I couldn't care less about what happened to Jon. I understand how it was important character development for him, I just didn't care.

I used to love Tyrion, but as I said before, I think he should have died. But I'm repeating myself there. :)

I'm fairly sure that there will be some twist on the whole AA/PTWP prophecy, but there probably still will BE some sort of AA. :/ 'course it would be cool if the PTWP turns bad. Star Wars style. "No, Daenerys, you were the chosen one!" Darth Vader!Daenerys would be hilarious.

There will be some sort of bloodbath, no matter if Jon is dead, dying, resurrected, whatever. :/

Stannis and Roose ... I want Stannis to get out of this as the winner, obviously, but I just don't want Roose to die. ;) I really want Roose to be the one to kill Ramsay, or sell him out to Stannis.

Oh, I just read theories about the fact that the "valonquar" could be any little brother, not necessarily CERSEI's little brother. *shrug* I'm not sure I buy that, I'm still for Jaime killing her, it seems most likely, especially with her conviction that she and Jaime will "leave this world together". BUT if it's not Jaime (and most definitely not Tyrion), it could be any little brother, right? And Loras is the youngest brother of his family. But, again, I'm not sure I buy those theories.

Ned exercised his own judgement, for example when he refused to ally himself with Renly (even though that was probably the RIGHT thing to do, joining forces with Robert's brothers). His judgement was just absolutely horrible.
I have no trouble with Barristan being flawed. I was just somewhat disappointed that the most honourable, awesome knight in the realm was so ... well, disappointing. I had my doubts about Barristan before (his behaviour was extremely questionable on numerous occasions), and somehow I had hoped that his POV chapters would clear things up, maybe restore the iffy feeling I got about him. I expected to get clear explanations for his past behaviour, the kind of moral justification for his actions that I would expect from a man who is always described as so incredibly honourable. Barristan, to me, seemed like the kind of man who would think his decisions through, or even if he makes spontaneous decisions, he really asks himself afterwards if it was right or not. Instead, I got, "yeah, I was kinda insulted that Joffrey dismissed me, so I did something totally dumb and explain it in one and a half sentence and then move on." I expected something profound on what he knwe about the Lannister incest, when he found out, why he bent the knee to Robert after the war, why he then decided to join Daenerys and not Stannis even though he apparently knew Stannis was Robert's heir, what he thought about the events back in Westeros ... and I got nothing. :/ Tbh, Barristan felt very hypocritical to me in his chapters.

Darth Daenerys. It would redeem her awful storyline. The heroine turns bad, while the guy who has been set up as potential bad guy from his first scene onwards turns out to be the hero. My wishful thinking almost hurts my brain. ;) Though, Stannis set aside, I'd love for Daenerys and Jon to fight each other. They've been set up as hero and heroine so much that their eventual alliance is expected by so many people, and it would just be epic if they ended up as enemies.

I think R'hllor is too much show for me, nightfires and dramatic speeches and all that bullshit. I really like the Northern gods: they don't really expect you to do anything, there are no priests, and occasionally you go into a forest and talk to a tree when you want to be alone with yourself. It's the only kind of religion that doesn't make me go like "lol, what?"

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I really didn't like Yigritte at all, she was one of those characters just mean for killing. She was so not going to live long. I think we are getting too many of those characters, mr. Martin, if you think you are still being inventive.

I'm fairly sure that there will be some twist on the whole AA/PTWP prophecy, but there probably still will BE some sort of AA.

The way it worked out in "Fevre Dream" was that prophesy didn't work out at all (I am just trying to be vague and non-spoilery)

There will be some sort of bloodbath, no matter if Jon is dead, dying, resurrected, whatever. :/

Oh, valonquar being "nay little brother" is a good point. It can be anyone, then . :D
I have no trouble with Barristan being flawed. I was just somewhat disappointed that the most honourable, awesome knight in the realm was so ... well, disappointing. Tbh, Barristan felt very hypocritical to me in his chapters.

Oh, I agree with all that. I thought he was so Not True Knight (I like the True Knight debate). For me the main thing was that he was willing to try and saw his mistakes. And yes, he contradicted himself which just seemed so .. honest. One minute he will be having doubts, and another moment he will be still harping about chivalry. It just seemed so .. normal.
I n short, it was Barristan's doubts I liked the most. Nothing is lost when a man is having doubts about his righteousness.

Where Ned was soooooo sure he didn't even talk to Renly. He could have talked to the Renly and tried to bring him to his reasoning, instead he just jumped on his high horse (but we discussed this before).

I WANT DARTH DANY SO MUCH my brain hurts too.

I think R'hllor is too much show for me, nightfires and dramatic speeches and all that bullshit. I really like the Northern gods: they don't really expect you to do anything, there are no priests, and occasionally you go into a forest and talk to a tree when you want to be alone with yourself. It's the only kind of religion that doesn't make me go like "lol, what?"

Oh, yep, The showmanship side of R'hllor is sooo.. silly. This is why the Old Gods would have been the first choice for me too. But I do have to admit that the Red Priests are onto something.

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

I'm with you about Jon. I've never been overly fond of him (though over the books it's gotten better...maybe because Mel was there...)

If Jon and Dany rule I will quit. I don't want this AT ALL! I think the 7 should break up really... no more squabbling.

I think Stannis is okay too. I pray that he is!!! I love him.

Cersei <3 all I can say

hehe R'hllor <3 just cause I'd want to see Mel. But probs the 7 since I'm a Southern girl XD

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I was terribly fond of Jon during the book one, but somehow over the books I lost my interest. His chapters were quite frustrating, kept wanting to yell at him: "Trust Melisandre!", "Kiss Val!". ** sigh ** So many opportunities, and all wasted.

I think Martin never kills any of his major characters "behind the scenes", so both Jaime and Stannis are fine.

I still can't see any prof Seven work - I like my religions to work. :D

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

He always annoyed me :\ but yeah he needs to trust Mel a bit.

Which is why I think Cersei might live too...

I doubt I'd be really into any of them but R'hllor is interesting.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I was a huge fan of Jon at first, but somehow this worn off a little. I think I generally tend to like the outsiders, the wild cards and the dark horses. When he became the Lords Commander he stopped being one.

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

I just tuned out with him... it was a bit like a never ending moan XD I tend to like characters lots of people hate lol

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I keep forgetting to ask - who are your favourites (apart from the ones I know: Cersei and Sansa/Sandor?)

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

Jaime (though he's getting on my nerves a tad now :() Melisandre <3 Stannis, Asha, Arianne and Theon in ADWD was surprising - I'm really liking Theon/Jeyne XD

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I am really warming up to Stannis (please Martin, this doesn't mean you can murder him :D).

Dornish ladies always were my bing loves, but my main girlcrush is Asha.

Als - Theon/Jeyene. Please AMrtin, make this happen somehow.

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

He must stay!
:D Asha is cool
I'm totally backing this ship! Poor Jeyne <3

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Re: jeyne. I am really angry with Littlefinger here. It was he who devised the whole plot to make her Arya substitute

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

the poor girl! LF has just gotten on my nerves now, perving after Sansa and all the crap with the Lannisters

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I confess I love the actor that plays him in the TV series. I often have to pinch myself and say "This is Littlefinger you are ogling".

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

oh he is!
I think I enjoy seeing LF more on tv than in the books

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I am really shallow this way. I even find the actor that plays Gregor somewhat ho tat times , and then I think "WHAT IS WRONG with me"?

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

ha lol totally shallow too XD LOL that's something

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

The guy that plays The Mountan is a member of the high-IQ society. :(

[themirrorofsin.livejournal.com]

he a cool guy giant.

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

IA with pretty much everything except Victarion, who I don't think I could ever enjoy, and Jon and hoping he is dead. I don't even know why I want Jon to live (i think he will end up.azor ahai or at least brought back by Mel) because I am not a huge Jon fan. I agree he made too many mistakes, but I think if I could get Robb or Ned back despite theirs I would be thrilled because they are such good people, and Jon is the same. It's nice to read his chapters compared to someone like Tyrion or Victarion. If I could choose who I wanted dead at the end of ADWD I think I would choose tyrion even though I feel like GRRM is going to try to make him more likeable again and a head of the dragon.

I also don't want a Jon and Dany to rule Westeros endgame but again I think I would rather be rid of Dany than Jon.

I am glad someone else appreciated both Cersei chapters, so many people I have seen just saying her punishment was disgusting, how could anyone enjoy reading that?! I don't believe Cersei has actually changed except maybe becoming more of a subtle schemer. Appointing the Mountain to the Kingsguard points to that for me. Funny enough though, I think the walk of disgrace could actually let Cersei and Jaime get back together if she allows it to change her like Jaime let loosing his hand change him. The way it was described as her 'womanly ways' being her way to get pe5ople to do what she wanted, and now since she was exposed like that she can no longer use that was like Jaime losing his best ability to fight with the sword. Unfortunately for Cersei she does not have someone like Brienne around, and I'm not sure if she would ever be able to change like Jaime did because its obvious now they are very different people. But I think it is very interesting that like Jaime she is given this chance.

Wow I wrote a ton :p ...sorry lol

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

You see, this is where I am coming from too: if Ned or Robb were killed off so cruelly by Martin, why Jon should be any different. :P

Oh, why don't you like Tyrion? I totally get it with Victarion, because he is one of those people who are rather piratey and evil (but this is the appeal!), but Tyrion seems to be good-core if somewhat broken due to Lord Tywin's parentage. As soon as he faces his biggest problem, inability to accept himself as he is, he will be fine. He also needs to meet Tysha and beg for forgiveness.

I think I would also prefer Dany to be dead, but this just not seems to be possible. If she managed to wreak havoc upon a good half of the continent with her do-goodder actions and didn't even fall off her dragon or contracted cholera? THERE IS SOMETHING SPECIAL about her blood, Martin tells us.

Oh, I am sure Cersei is just scheming and pretending. Which makes it great for me, as much as I love a good redemption story, I like it that some of the villains are set in their ways. I just loved her attitude through her ordeal. Whatever happens, I am never going to see her in the same way (paranoid weak woman). It is something I can try to apply in my personal life - if and when something bad happens, I am going to remember Cersei and how she was so strong through the WORST.

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

I totally understand what you are saying, its just I don't mind if its not 'fair', I just dont want them all to be dead, and Jon's the only one who has a chance now of being alive.

Tyrion bothers me a TON with how much he thinks with his dick, and now his personality is just super bitter. I used to be able to look over it because he did seem like a really good-hearted person, but during ASOS he just started to annoy me. I hate how he just decided that he was just going to give in and be the monster everyone thought he was. I really hate how he said he wanted to rape Cersei and how he treated some of the other girls he met. And if I ever hear "where do whores go" again....

Oh I know there is no chance for Dany to die, but I just wish she would sometimes, or at least get to Westeros. I am so sick of her just making a mess of all these cities she tries to 'save' and her failing a mother of the dragons.

I agree she is just pretending, I just think its really ironic that her and Jaime had such similar things happen, and if Cersei understood how he had changed then maybe she would be able to do the same. But she does not understand how or why he did, and certainly does not accept that he did change. She is too set in her ways, and there is no way in her mind she can not get revenge I think. In her own way she is much stronger than Jaime was.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I don't really want him to die. I just think Martin is overdoing "fatal mistakes" trope. One more "fatal mistake", and this will definitely become repetitive.

Strangely, I am different. I guess I do always cheer for an underdog. I was abit bored with Tyrion when he was this genius who could do no wrong.. Now he is broken and he actually begins to think what he had done to Tysha.. and I am interested.

I really hate how he said he wanted to rape Cersei and how he treated some of the other girls he met. And if I ever hear "where do whores go" again....

Oh, where did he say he wanted to rape Cersei? If you remember the place? I am not trying to be weird, I just want to keep these things bookmarked (only if you remember). To tell the truth, Martin uses the word rape far too often, it is known. ALSO - CAN SOMEONE STOP TYRION FROM SAYING "where do whores go"? It is clear that Tywin meant this as a general "who cares"!!!!!!!!!!

Oh I know there is no chance for Dany to die, but I just wish she would sometimes, or at least get to Westeros. I am so sick of her just making a mess of all these cities she tries to 'save' and her failing a mother of the dragons.

The devastation she has wrecked on poor free cities is hard to even imagine. She repeats the way of the Dragonlords of the old, they also destroyed so many cultures.

In her own way she is much stronger than Jaime was.

Yes, I agree with this.

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

Yeah, IA especially because it is always the Stark boys it seems :(

I loved Tyrion in AGOT and ACOK, I actually found him one of the most interesting characters then, and he was always in the thick of all the action. Now he does not interest me because he is so bitter, and now he is on Essos so he is not apart of the Kings Landing action anymore either.

I don't remember the exact part, but I think it is one of his early chapters in ADWD, maybe when he is in Pentos?

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is like Marin is hitting the same thing with a hammer : "Starks, always making stupid mistakes". Ok, I think even I got it by now (as I have still not cooled down from Robb's decisions).

Oh, I found it. Now I remember : "And the only reward I
ask is I might be allowed to rape and kill my sister", and I am not even sure he meant it as a jape. I do still love him , though, I seem to have love for all the "broken things" in thise series. As I said, raping seems to come up too often is ASOIAF jokes. To tell the truth, I see it as Martin overusing his tropes again. He wants to shock us here, I think, but a joke like this is a shock once or twice. Twenty times in the same book - and you start wondering if something is amiss.

[outboxed.livejournal.com]

I really can't see Jon dying just like that. I think that's because, so far, no-one has ever died after ta cliff-hangers where it looks like they're dead/about to die in all of ASOIAF. Fun though it might be to buck the convention, I just don't see it happening. Also, am I the only one who read the men of the Night's Watch attacking Jon as them being weirdly posessed or something? I assumed (for some mysterious reason) that it was all Melisandre's work because she was sure that Jon was Azor Ahai or something. I may well just be cracked though and I hadn't remembered Melisandre's warning about keeping Ghost close.

I am totally taking the credit for the fact that you think the that the unnnamed 'Stark' Barristan referred to probably isn't Ned - given that you seemed fairly certain about it before I we discussed it. ;P

I enjoyed Vicatrion's POV but I think he's going a bit off the rails in a not-especially-cool way. He's far too fixated with Euron and I think his new-found (but still dual) religious fervour is a little concerning.

I have to say, I'm in favour of the Old Gods over the other religions in ASOIAF but I think that's mostly because I feel that it's based in spirituality and nature rather than religious observance and that appeals to me. (:

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I also thought of the Night's Watch being posessed (briefly), but I was far from thinking Melisandre did it. And, yes, I don't think it was her because she kept warning Jon. Honestly, I think the Night's Watch members just gone of the rails. The situation was bad to start with (with all the wildlings), and then Jon announces that a)Stannis is dead, consequently there is no-one to back Jon up, b) Jon is going to abandon them and march to Winterfell, c) They will be left with the wildlings , but without Jon to protect them.

And I mean, seriously, Jon's decision was the worst decision in the history of bad decisions!!! he could have consulted Melisandre!

Barristan on Stak boy: hahahaha! yes, you prompted me to think more about this, but I used to think that this doesn't quite fit Ned before that. I mean - if this was Ned, Ned IS a different person I always thought him to be. However, everything still points at Ned. ANYWAYS, it is all you!

Victarion: I think I like people going off the rails in this series. As we discussed before, I like all the magical elements, and Victarion is connected with many (the horn, his hand), etc. Plus I think I like the guy (I will not apologise :D I find that in the fandom liking "bad" charterers is viewed as something "evil", but I don't share these beliefs)

I have to say, I'm in favour of the Old Gods over the other religions in ASOIAF but I think that's mostly because I feel that it's based in spirituality and nature rather than religious observance and that appeals to me. (:

yes, this is why I like both The Old gods and R'hllor. these are not religions as such as portals to use some serious magic . The dangerous thing is that both religions are connected with human sacrifice (northerners used to make human sacrifices to their gods) , but because the magic is real in ASOIAF Universe this makes both religions scary .. but interesting.

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

Barristan Selmy would have never laid a finger on Sansa, even if he was ordered by Joffrey.

Much as I find Barristan a fascinating and interesting character, I tend to disagree with your assessment here. Barristan stood by and let Aerys rape, torture and murder people - so why would be baulk at hitting a child? He didn't object to Aerys, so why Joffrey? Barristan would find a way to excuse his actions I'm sure, probably by the old Kingsguard adage "We're just following orders", and he might also might haunted by it. Yet when push comes to show I think he'd do what his king ordered him to.

I guess I find it interesting that Barristan, who everyone thinks of as this paragon of honour, has in a way lost most of sense of moral. Contrasted with that is Sandor, who is hardly thought of as an honourable knight, but who does help Sansa and tries to protect her. Which is just one of many ways Martin shows us how hollow the concept of honour truly is.

but when you see some solid proof that Melisandre does actually see some truth in her fires? Listen to a female, for once!

I'm sorry my dear, but what does the fact that Mel is female have to do with it? I got the sense that Jon's distrust wasn't based on the fact that she was a woman, but rather because in his experience she made mistakes. She told him Arya was coming, instead Alys Karstark shows up. She tells him Stannis is Azor Ahai, yet few at the Wall buys into that - Jon included. (he even thinks to himself that Stannis sword should be warm, but isn't). Add to the fact that she keeps burning people and tries to force the Wildlings to change their religion by making them destroy the Weirwood they see as holy. A religion which Jon shares, so she's basically attacking his faith as well. Based on that I thought it made perfect sense for him not to trust her. Though it had nothing to to with her being a woman.

Now why he insisted to lock up Ghost is a good question. ;)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

oh, I would totally argue Barristan's corner to death. :D There are many moments in ADWD where he regrets that he just stood by with Arys and where he even regrets that he rescued him from Duskendale. Also, Barristan was not there for the worst of it as he was with Rhaegar's army. For me, his regret speaks words. There is a moment where he remembers how Rhaegar's children were murdered and how he would have killed Robert on the spot if he was there. And then he sticks for children in Meereen. I believe he would have said "No" to Joffrey's order because he was already having doubts, especially because he wants to protect all children!

I compare him with Ned, mostly. We saw the same picture from Ned's eyes , and although I love Ned, what he remembers is mostly Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne! The death of children haunts Ned, but in nowhere I see him thinking "Oh, I am not sure if I supported the right cause, we should have championed Rhaegar instead".

Also - do not start me on Sandor.. :D I have seen so many Sandor haters in LJ fandom for some reason that I can use any excuse for long discussions about him. :D . One of my friends written an awesome entry on how she thinks Sandor will eventually kill The Mountain (I agree with this too), thus fulfilling his duty of a true knight (the protector). I would love that.

As to Jon, I AM VERY ANGRY WITH HIM and can not be objective here, sorry. I never understood why what happened happened on my "spoilery" read, and now I have understood. I know Jon didn't listen to Mel not because she was "just a woman", but Jon should have seen that Mel had the most part of everything right, he just chose NOT to see. If I was him, I would have definitely started at least thinking "can she be right? She predicted the girl and the raven and other things ?"

And even if he didn't trust Mel - where this idea to go off on a tangent to Winterfell in the worst possible moment came from???

The most disappointing thing is that Martin keeps re-using this "fatal mistake" trope again and again. I think it is enough already, I am not of course angry with Jon, I am just not that happy that Martin is re-using his old trope here.

Sorry, this is a bit ranty!

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

Yes, but regrets are not actions. Also he wasn't with Rheagar's army until the end of the war, simply because Rheagar wasn't with the army until then. Connington had an army, but we get no indication that Barristan was with him. Which means that Barristan was in KL around the time Aerys started to go really bad, though of course there were indications that he was rather crazy as far back as the Harrenhall tourney. Now, I'm not claiming Barristan is a bad man, but rather that he is a very flawed man - and one I think we will see try to redeem himself. As such his regrets in ADWD speak highly of the man.

Also he wouldn't have killed Robert on the spot. He would have killed him if Robert had smiled. There's a difference.

I find Barristan to be one who has been blinded by the idea of chivalry being a very specific thing, and who interpreted the oath of the Kingsguard to the letter - rather than trying to grasp the essence of that oath. In contrast to what both Jaime and Sandor did. So don't get me wrong. I really like Barristan. I just think he lost himself in trying to be the epitome of honour, and now he has to find the man he once was. As such both he and Jaime are on quest to try to reclaim the greatness of the Kingsguard, and quest which incidentally involves their own redemption.

There are people who hate Sandor? But why? ;) Then again I guess we all have our favourites, and Sandor is one of mine.

Jon should have seen that Mel had the most part of everything right, he just chose NOT to see.

Oh, parts of it is that he didn't want to see, as he is generally rather sceptical of sorcery. (a rather interesting opposition to Dany btw.)Parts of it were based on the fact that he really doesn't trust Mel, and I don't think her trying to bewitch Ghost did her any favours on that account either.

where this idea to go off on a tangent to Winterfell in the worst possible moment came from???

Because he doesn't know that Arya is Jeyne Poole, and so he thinks Ramsey is hunting the sister he was closest to. The same Ramsey who mentions in his letter that he's made a cloak out of the spear wives. Jon couldn't save his father, couldn't save Robb- but he is given a chance to save Arya as so he takes it. Idiotic perhaps, but believable and rather human.

Also Ramsey threatens to come after him, and Castle Black cannot be defended from the south. If he stays at the Wall they'll be sitting ducks, but if he meets Ramsey on another battlefield he might have a chance, and if not then at least Castle Black might be spared. But on a whole I think Jon just snapped, and decided to hell with his vows.

Yet I rather liked that Jon made a mistake, particularly since so much of the criticism against Jon has been that he's had it too easy and that he was such a typical hero and so forth. Then he went ahead and made a huge blunder, and will possibly pay dearly for it. I don't think he'll die, mostly because it makes no narrative sense for him to die at this stage. (On a narrative/meta level Ned wasn't killed because he made a mistake. Ned died because he could reveal to much of the plot, aka the truth about Lyanna and so forth. Also, without Dead!Ned no King Robb or RW.)

I think it is enough already, I am not of course angry with Jon, I am just not that happy that Martin is re-using his old trope here.

Yeah, I think the whole "lock-up-the-wolf" thing is getting a bit old. He did it with Robb, and it was tragic. He does it with Jon, and um, it makes little sense? Martin should have found a way around that. Let Ghost be knocked unconscious trying to save Jon from Wun-Wun or something you know? Then have the conspirators strike, trying to get the knives in before the wolf wakes up. ;)

Don't worry about ranty. I love discussing these books with you, and I always appreciate that you're so open for debating things. :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

You see, but Barristan speaks with actions too, when he arrests Hizdahr. There is a question raised about Hizdahr (mind you, I don’t think Hizdahr tried to poison Dany as this is too obvious, I think people who opposed the peace did, or Yunkish), and he is not ready to serve the man who is "rightful king”, he instead chooses do what he thinks is right , which is a bit hilarious as he is not used to thinking for himself. But he does it.

The same thing would have happened with Joffrey as the questions about his parentage were raised. Joffrey is not the same as Arys for Barristan, and never will be. Arys was the king of the dynasty Barristan sworn to serve, but Joffrey? A son of the "Usurper" with unclear parentage? Asking him to beat a child? Mind you, I don’t think Joffrey would have ever asked Barristan.

I just think he lost himself in trying to be the epitome of honour, and now he has to find the man he once was. As such both he and Jaime are on quest to try to reclaim the greatness of the Kingsguard, and quest which incidentally involves their own redemption.

Oh, I think so too, and I agree – he is lost in his notions of honour. Only I think he is trying to get himself un-lost (which counts) , and plus to it blaming him for something he never did (beating Sansa) is quite unfair.

There are people who hate Sandor? But why? ;) Then again I guess we all have our favourites, and Sandor is one of mine.

Oh, I think the main reason is “alcoholic maniac” or something like this. Very odd. Never mind, more for me.
There are some people that like his character too, take me right! I think he is one of the characters that are either hated or liked, nothing in between.

re: Jon

Everything happens so quickly that I am not even sure now why Jon did what he did. For me the main reason was “Arya”, because how Jon could not see that Ramsay was just bluffing with his words about attacking The Wall – why wold he do that? Travel all those weeks through the showy wilderness “just in spite”? And even then – let him come, let the Night’s Watch prepare for the attack.

In any case, he could have.. you know.. explained all ins and outs to the Night’s Watch, could have chosen the decision with their counsel? As much as I don’t particular think the Night's Watch is made of very bright people, I still think Jon “owes” them his loyalty. Instead, he just abruptly told them that he forsakes his vows, that is all. What was this not-very-bright bunch of people supposed to think? That he is off and leaves them to tidy after his decisions (re: wildlings).

But the main thing, of course is that Jon HAS sworn his vows. You see, I don’t think he ever taken it seriously, 100% seriously. He keeps reminding himself of the vows , but he is still wavering.

Yeah, I think the whole "lock-up-the-wolf" thing is getting a bit old. He did it with Robb, and it was tragic. He does it with Jon, and um, it makes little sense? Martin should have found a way around that. Let Ghost be knocked unconscious trying to save Jon from Wun-Wun or something you know? Then have the conspirators strike, trying to get the knives in before the wolf wakes up. ;)

Yes, and I think this is what makes me dissatisfied with the storyline the most.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

PS: With Jon , I think, it would have worked much better if the Night Watch just staged a coop because he invited the wildlings in.

[marinshellstone.livejournal.com]

Let it be known that you are fabulous and I love when you make these posts.

What is the significance of the cat, though? I keep wondering. Is it just a cool little thing for fans?

I was shocked at how much I was feeling sympathy/empathy for Cersei. SHOCKED! but that is GRRM's genius, I suppose?

brb, laughing my ass off imagining GRRM's gold tooth fetish.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

** blushes ** Ty, thank you so much!

I wonder if Targaryens were wargs to some degree (the had to be, to control the dragins!), so may be, just may be, the cat has a little of Rhaena in him. But even if not, yes,this is just on of those interesting things.

I was the most surprised I also went 180 degrees turn on Theon and Cersei.

[bzoppa.livejournal.com]

Hmm--after reading through your posts, I wonder if I still have to listen to the entire book?

I want one that's edited out the potty times, and all the characters who are there for one book and die.

I'm sure I can find a good summary... but until I get confirmation of more Jamie-Brienne time, I'm holding off. I think this is one of those series where I need to know everything that happens before I consider reading it.

But at that point there will probably be lots more things for me to read/listen to...

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

YES YOU HAVE.

I am finally listening to "Black Company" now that I finished ADWD.

How far are you in the ASOIAF series?

[bzoppa.livejournal.com]

I listened through FFC, so next up is DWD. Of course, I listened back in early 2009 so my memory is a bit hazy--that's where all the random characters started being introduced, too.

YAY FOR BLACK COMPANY. I really loved that series. It was a lot of fun! The narrator for Croaker is awesome. I was totally in love with him.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I had to re-read AFFC, there were so many new chacters. I think ADWD has much less of new characters, but has quite a bit of "padding" (unnecessary stuff). I loved the book , though. Interesting things happen in that book.

I like the narrator for Croaker, but I find him so .. USA, just a different accent. It is not bad, just different. I think I liked the guy who does ASOIAF the most so far (My apologies, I think I have grown into a British lady). But it is great to finally listed to the Black Company series, finally. It has been ages since I read the books, and I read them in Russian (for strange reason Black Company is more popular in Russia than in UK).

[guety.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with everything. I don't want Jon to die, though, because I love him, but do I think his storyline is over and it's probably best if he stays dead. I just wish he hadn't made such a bad decision. Specially when Ned and Robb were betrayed and killed in similar circumstances and Melisandre was warning him. But I have the feeling that Melisandre is going to save him at the last minute and he's not really going to die.

Man, I love Barristan. About Ashara's baby... I really don't see Ned as the type to have sex with a highborn lady and just leave her like that. Even if he didn't know that she was pregnant, I think he's more the type to marry her after dishonoring her, like Robb did with Jeyne. BUT. It could be that he actually was going to marry her and had promised her so, but at the end was forced to marry Catelyn for the sake of Robert and his rebellion. That would be fitting with Ashara's suicide and the fact that Ned seems to feel guilty for the things he did in the past, and things involving Ashara. The father of Ashara's baby could also be Brandon, of course, and he does seem the type to do that. I hope we learn all the truth about this in the next book.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I pretty much agree with everything. I don't want Jon to die, though, because I love him, but do I think his storyline is over and it's probably best if he stays dead. I just wish he hadn't made such a bad decision. Specially when Ned and Robb were betrayed and killed in similar circumstances and Melisandre was warning him. But I have the feeling that Melisandre is going to save him at the last minute and he's not really going to die.

I don't really want Jon dead. I am just a little angry at Martin for repeating the same trope again and again. I know one person can only generate so many plot devices, but really, he needs to watch at least the main ones. One more "fatal mistake" there will be definitely too many.

It could be that he actually was going to marry her and had promised her so, but at the end was forced to marry Catelyn for the sake of Robert and his rebellion. That would be fitting with Ashara's suicide and the fact that Ned seems to feel guilty for the things he did in the past, and things involving Ashara. The father of Ashara's baby could also be Brandon, of course, and he does seem the type to do that. I hope we learn all the truth about this in the next book.

To tell the truth, I would rather prefer the story to go this way. For two reasons. One, I would like Ned to be "less than perfect", I would love him more in this way. Two, this is just a more romantic story (and I am a romantic). If it was just "wild Brandon", there is not much romance in that. If ned had to give up his first love - this would be beautiful (I am sure he didn't know about Ashara having a baby, though). And yes, this will also make more sense as this will make Ned's guilt re:children in general more understandable.

[guety.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, it pisses me off that Jon has pretty much gone the same way Ned and Robb went. It's starting to be repetitive, specially when it comes to the Starks.

I would like it to go that way too. It'd be nice to see a less perfect and more young and human side to Ned. But if Ashara's kid was Brandon's, that would be interesting too. I mean, he had sex with the woman his younger brother had a crush on. That would make their dynamics as brothers more complicated.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, this is what bothers me too. And there was no need for adding the "fatal mistake" storyline in Jon's case, I think. I would have really preferred if the Night's Watch just decided to rebel because of Jon's inviting the wildlings in. Jon could have been injured all the same, but this just would have been different.

On the side note, if it was Brandon, not Ned, some things that Barristan did would have made more sense. I think it is semi-canon (or canon) that Barristan was there (and did nothing) when Ned's father and brother were murdered by Arys. It would have made more sense if Barristan hated Brandon (and his father because her might have been involved in not letting Brandon marry Ashara).