A Dance with Dragons: part 3 of 3.

[alexandral]

The third part of the book was the best , most likely because all the characters are back !



Jon:

Finishing the book, I am convinced that Jon's part in ADWD is a mirror of Ned's part in A Game of Thrones, and it ends in a similar way. Martin seems to like to write about fatal mistakes. Jon seems to have moments of wisdom and makes some really good decisions, but at the end, he wastes it all with the decision that rivals worst of Ned's, Robb's, and Cat's mistakes in it's recklessness. And of course, the situation in the Night's Watch was incendiary due to the wildlings joining the Night Watch, so deciding to quit it all in this very unstable moment and march to Winterfell was something that can only be called madness (for the point of reference, Jon's intention to go ranging to Hardhome was a very very bad decision too).

My apologies to Jon's fans on my friends list, I want him dead. I am getting wary of the impending "Dany and Jon rule the Westeros together". And why Jon has to survive when Ned and Robb had to pay for their mistakes? Why Catelyn had to turn into an evil zombie? What is special about Jon? I want no resurrections and no Azor Ahai re-born. It is interesting, however, that what brings his downfall is something he tried to do so many times - his attempt to leave the Night's Watch and his position. He never actually accepted that he doesn't belong to himself anymore.

I am quite annoyed at him for not paying any notice to Melisandre as well. Ok, Jon, I may "understand" your religious intolerance because it is so common in Westeros, but when you see some solid proof that Melisandre does actually see some truth in her fires? Listen to a female, for once! Keep Ghost with you!

On Stannis and his fate

I am convinced that Ramsay is bluffing and Stannis is fine. Otherwise, how Ramsay does not know that Theon and Jeyne joined Stannis? The crazy guy is bluffing. I shudder to think of the fate of Mance Rayder and his spear wives, though.

Cersei

I might turn into a big fan of Cersei. I loved her chapters. The way she dealt with her "punishment" made me respect her, and she is always a good read. What a strong woman. I even relate to her somehow. Plus, the Zombie Mountain as Ser Robert Strong? This is so scary, but good scary!

Quentyn

As much as I liked Quentyn, note to self: do not try to steal a dragon.

Dany

I am really glad Dany's story has started getting somewhere at the end of the book, but I am still not that enthusiastic. It took a whole book for her to realise that dragons need training (wasn't this obvious from the start, that she needed to train the dragons from their young age?) and that she does not belong in Meereen? And she still doesn't seem to realise what kinds of disasters she has inflicted on Meereen, Astaphor and other cities by her actions? It was all her own doing, all of it! Utopias do not work! Hopefully she will start going somewhere - but what if we have her riding with Khal Jhaqo for the whole of the next book?

Also - Daario!!! I hope he was one of those corpses that the Yunkish were using in their trebuchets. One mentioning of his beautiful gold tooth and I am going to be sick. I have a feeling Martin was trolling his readers here, he was going on and on and on about the beauty of the gold tooth a little too much. Or does Martin have a gold tooth fetish?

Barristan Selmy

His chapters were wonderful, they gave us such a great inside into his character, as well as some interesting information about the past. I have argued once that I believe one thing: Barristan Selmy would have never laid a finger on Sansa, even if he was ordered by Joffrey. Even if he would have stayed in King's Landing (if Joffrey didn't dismiss him) , Barristan would have refused to beat a child. He would have gone against his "king". By that time Barristan was tired turning the blind eye to everything that was happening in King's Landing, tired to obey the orders of drunkards and crazies, and this would have been a "straw that broke the camel's back". I am convinced of this after ADWD.

Regarding the past: I don't think Ned was the father of Ashara Dayne's baby, and Barristan never actually said "Ned", he said "Stark boy". But is it my love for Ned talking, the fact that I can't believe that "my Ned" was able of abandoning the mother of his child? It was Ned who danced with Ashara at Harrenhal. But it was Brandon Stark who talked to Ashara for Ned!

Victarion

Victarion's were one of the best chapters for me, because they were linked with the magic side of the series. I think Victarion is the corpse captain in Dany's prophesy. The corpse Captain might be someone else, for example, Euron, but my bets are on Victarion, for two reasons. The main reason is that Dany needs the Iron Fleet, and I can't quite picture Euron captaining the fleet. The second reason is that the corpse captain in the prophesy smiles sadly, and again, I can't quite see Euron smiling sadly, he is not that type.

On black cat with a torn ear

I agree with the opinion that the cat that is mentioned in Kevan's chapter is Princess Rhaena's little black kitten. The cat is the right age (old for a cat which makes him over 10) , and there is no coincidence that this cat is mentioned again and again (this cat was the same cat that Arya used to chase in her days with Syrio).

Epilogue

Varys is the one of the main players in the Game of Thrones, and he appears at the end, killing poor sensible Kevan Lannister. What a pity, he was such a good Hand.

PS if I have to chose a religion in Westeros, it will be either the Old Gods (I am a Northern girl) or R'hllor , because both Melisandre and Moqorro seem to be quite powerful.

Comments

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

oh, I would totally argue Barristan's corner to death. :D There are many moments in ADWD where he regrets that he just stood by with Arys and where he even regrets that he rescued him from Duskendale. Also, Barristan was not there for the worst of it as he was with Rhaegar's army. For me, his regret speaks words. There is a moment where he remembers how Rhaegar's children were murdered and how he would have killed Robert on the spot if he was there. And then he sticks for children in Meereen. I believe he would have said "No" to Joffrey's order because he was already having doubts, especially because he wants to protect all children!

I compare him with Ned, mostly. We saw the same picture from Ned's eyes , and although I love Ned, what he remembers is mostly Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne! The death of children haunts Ned, but in nowhere I see him thinking "Oh, I am not sure if I supported the right cause, we should have championed Rhaegar instead".

Also - do not start me on Sandor.. :D I have seen so many Sandor haters in LJ fandom for some reason that I can use any excuse for long discussions about him. :D . One of my friends written an awesome entry on how she thinks Sandor will eventually kill The Mountain (I agree with this too), thus fulfilling his duty of a true knight (the protector). I would love that.

As to Jon, I AM VERY ANGRY WITH HIM and can not be objective here, sorry. I never understood why what happened happened on my "spoilery" read, and now I have understood. I know Jon didn't listen to Mel not because she was "just a woman", but Jon should have seen that Mel had the most part of everything right, he just chose NOT to see. If I was him, I would have definitely started at least thinking "can she be right? She predicted the girl and the raven and other things ?"

And even if he didn't trust Mel - where this idea to go off on a tangent to Winterfell in the worst possible moment came from???

The most disappointing thing is that Martin keeps re-using this "fatal mistake" trope again and again. I think it is enough already, I am not of course angry with Jon, I am just not that happy that Martin is re-using his old trope here.

Sorry, this is a bit ranty!

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

Yes, but regrets are not actions. Also he wasn't with Rheagar's army until the end of the war, simply because Rheagar wasn't with the army until then. Connington had an army, but we get no indication that Barristan was with him. Which means that Barristan was in KL around the time Aerys started to go really bad, though of course there were indications that he was rather crazy as far back as the Harrenhall tourney. Now, I'm not claiming Barristan is a bad man, but rather that he is a very flawed man - and one I think we will see try to redeem himself. As such his regrets in ADWD speak highly of the man.

Also he wouldn't have killed Robert on the spot. He would have killed him if Robert had smiled. There's a difference.

I find Barristan to be one who has been blinded by the idea of chivalry being a very specific thing, and who interpreted the oath of the Kingsguard to the letter - rather than trying to grasp the essence of that oath. In contrast to what both Jaime and Sandor did. So don't get me wrong. I really like Barristan. I just think he lost himself in trying to be the epitome of honour, and now he has to find the man he once was. As such both he and Jaime are on quest to try to reclaim the greatness of the Kingsguard, and quest which incidentally involves their own redemption.

There are people who hate Sandor? But why? ;) Then again I guess we all have our favourites, and Sandor is one of mine.

Jon should have seen that Mel had the most part of everything right, he just chose NOT to see.

Oh, parts of it is that he didn't want to see, as he is generally rather sceptical of sorcery. (a rather interesting opposition to Dany btw.)Parts of it were based on the fact that he really doesn't trust Mel, and I don't think her trying to bewitch Ghost did her any favours on that account either.

where this idea to go off on a tangent to Winterfell in the worst possible moment came from???

Because he doesn't know that Arya is Jeyne Poole, and so he thinks Ramsey is hunting the sister he was closest to. The same Ramsey who mentions in his letter that he's made a cloak out of the spear wives. Jon couldn't save his father, couldn't save Robb- but he is given a chance to save Arya as so he takes it. Idiotic perhaps, but believable and rather human.

Also Ramsey threatens to come after him, and Castle Black cannot be defended from the south. If he stays at the Wall they'll be sitting ducks, but if he meets Ramsey on another battlefield he might have a chance, and if not then at least Castle Black might be spared. But on a whole I think Jon just snapped, and decided to hell with his vows.

Yet I rather liked that Jon made a mistake, particularly since so much of the criticism against Jon has been that he's had it too easy and that he was such a typical hero and so forth. Then he went ahead and made a huge blunder, and will possibly pay dearly for it. I don't think he'll die, mostly because it makes no narrative sense for him to die at this stage. (On a narrative/meta level Ned wasn't killed because he made a mistake. Ned died because he could reveal to much of the plot, aka the truth about Lyanna and so forth. Also, without Dead!Ned no King Robb or RW.)

I think it is enough already, I am not of course angry with Jon, I am just not that happy that Martin is re-using his old trope here.

Yeah, I think the whole "lock-up-the-wolf" thing is getting a bit old. He did it with Robb, and it was tragic. He does it with Jon, and um, it makes little sense? Martin should have found a way around that. Let Ghost be knocked unconscious trying to save Jon from Wun-Wun or something you know? Then have the conspirators strike, trying to get the knives in before the wolf wakes up. ;)

Don't worry about ranty. I love discussing these books with you, and I always appreciate that you're so open for debating things. :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

You see, but Barristan speaks with actions too, when he arrests Hizdahr. There is a question raised about Hizdahr (mind you, I don’t think Hizdahr tried to poison Dany as this is too obvious, I think people who opposed the peace did, or Yunkish), and he is not ready to serve the man who is "rightful king”, he instead chooses do what he thinks is right , which is a bit hilarious as he is not used to thinking for himself. But he does it.

The same thing would have happened with Joffrey as the questions about his parentage were raised. Joffrey is not the same as Arys for Barristan, and never will be. Arys was the king of the dynasty Barristan sworn to serve, but Joffrey? A son of the "Usurper" with unclear parentage? Asking him to beat a child? Mind you, I don’t think Joffrey would have ever asked Barristan.

I just think he lost himself in trying to be the epitome of honour, and now he has to find the man he once was. As such both he and Jaime are on quest to try to reclaim the greatness of the Kingsguard, and quest which incidentally involves their own redemption.

Oh, I think so too, and I agree – he is lost in his notions of honour. Only I think he is trying to get himself un-lost (which counts) , and plus to it blaming him for something he never did (beating Sansa) is quite unfair.

There are people who hate Sandor? But why? ;) Then again I guess we all have our favourites, and Sandor is one of mine.

Oh, I think the main reason is “alcoholic maniac” or something like this. Very odd. Never mind, more for me.
There are some people that like his character too, take me right! I think he is one of the characters that are either hated or liked, nothing in between.

re: Jon

Everything happens so quickly that I am not even sure now why Jon did what he did. For me the main reason was “Arya”, because how Jon could not see that Ramsay was just bluffing with his words about attacking The Wall – why wold he do that? Travel all those weeks through the showy wilderness “just in spite”? And even then – let him come, let the Night’s Watch prepare for the attack.

In any case, he could have.. you know.. explained all ins and outs to the Night’s Watch, could have chosen the decision with their counsel? As much as I don’t particular think the Night's Watch is made of very bright people, I still think Jon “owes” them his loyalty. Instead, he just abruptly told them that he forsakes his vows, that is all. What was this not-very-bright bunch of people supposed to think? That he is off and leaves them to tidy after his decisions (re: wildlings).

But the main thing, of course is that Jon HAS sworn his vows. You see, I don’t think he ever taken it seriously, 100% seriously. He keeps reminding himself of the vows , but he is still wavering.

Yeah, I think the whole "lock-up-the-wolf" thing is getting a bit old. He did it with Robb, and it was tragic. He does it with Jon, and um, it makes little sense? Martin should have found a way around that. Let Ghost be knocked unconscious trying to save Jon from Wun-Wun or something you know? Then have the conspirators strike, trying to get the knives in before the wolf wakes up. ;)

Yes, and I think this is what makes me dissatisfied with the storyline the most.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

PS: With Jon , I think, it would have worked much better if the Night Watch just staged a coop because he invited the wildlings in.