Thoughts on Jaime and Kingslaying

[alexandral]

This is something that always puzzled me : why is everyone , literally everyone hates Jaime for what he did to king Aerys II? I have just re-read some Brienne's chapters where she meets some ordinary people and they say things like: "Jaime Lannister is an evil Kingslayer". Doesn't this seem to be a little unfair? I mean, killing the Mad King that was about to burn up the city was a good thing to do?



However, the cause-effect chain is quite interesting, and I think the answer for the universtal hate of Jaime is actually in the way the events unfolded. Two paragraphs below are taken from Wiki of Ice and Fire and contain the short synopsis of the events:

"Lord Tywin Lannister, who had remained neutral until the Battle of the Trident, marched to the gates of King's Landing with a force of 12, 000 men, claiming loyalty to Aerys II and asking to be let in. Aerys favored the advice of Grand Maester Pycelle over that of his spymaster Varys and opened the gates of the city. The Lannister forces then began to sack the city in Robert's name. Aerys ordered his most recent Hand, the pyromancer Rossart, to ignite the wildfire caches throughout the city, saying, "Let him [Robert] be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes."

Aerys then ordered Jaime Lannister, one of his Kingsguard and Tywin's own son, to kill his father. Instead, Jaime slew Lord Rossart and then murdered Aerys himself on the Iron Throne. Tywin sent his knights Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch to deal with the rest of the royal family, securing the throne for Robert and proving that House Lannister had forsaken the Targaryens forever. Gregor killed the baby crown prince Aegon Targaryen while his mother watched, and then proceeded to rape and murder Princess Elia herself. Amory dragged princess Rhaenys from under her father's bed and killed her. When Eddard Stark arrived shortly thereafter, he found Jaime seated on the Iron Throne and Aerys's corpse slumped below it. Tywin Lannister presented the bodies of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys as tokens of his fealty, laid out beneath the Iron Throne. The resulting argument led to Eddard Stark riding out alone to finish the war in the south. "

From this, Jaime's killing of the Mad King can be viewed as a part of the bigger betrayal by Lord Tywin. This resulted in sack of King's Landing: babies murdered, women raped, etc. So I think it is easy to understand that the onlookers take the event as a whole, and instead of dividing it into "who did what" have a negative perception of the event. From what we know of Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch, the whole city must have suffered rapes and killings. Even more, King Aerys order to burn the city was issued after the sacking of the city already started, so in the cause-event chain, the sacking of the city is the beginning of everything. But this I think is less relevant - not many people seem to know that Aerys intended to burn the city (but unfortunately this is the main argument for Jaime's actions).

As to Jaime, I think he did the right thing by killing Aerys and his pyromancer. Some can argue that there was a chance for Jaime to imprison the Mad King, but if this would have happened, the King Arys would have been killed by Ser Gregor only a little later. There was no way for the King to be out of this alive.

But is Jaime clear of any blame for the Sack of King's Landing? I don't think so. He was, after all, an accessory, as Jaime's murder of the Mad King was an integral part of the events. And in the mind of ordinary people he was the son of Lord Tywin , the man behind the Sack.

What I am trying to say is that whatever I might think of killing the mad King Aerys II (kill him, I say :D) , the events are much more complex than that and the King's death is viewed in people's mind as a part of the whole "rape and kill" event that took place in King's Landing. Which, obviously, was horrific..

In particular, it is clear why Ned Stark was so angry with Jaime: he sees Jaime on the Iron Throne, the King dead. It is not clear if the bodies of the family were already laid out in the front of the Iron Throne, but even if they were not, they would be shortly later... Ned , obviously, was not pleased with this (in fact, the killing of the Royal family is something that will haunt him for years) and the argument between him and Lannisters resulted from here.

It is not clear if painting everyone with the same brush is the right thing to do, but it is a natural thing that happens so easily. Plus, purely objectively, Jaime was an accomplice of Lord Tywin (he was there, he killed the King, he did nothing to stop other atrocities), and by proxy, an accomplice of Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch.

Hmm, everything seems so complex! In short, I think poor Jaime is painted with the same brush as Lord Tywin here, and it is interesting that at the end, he is maimed and tortured by his father's people, the same people that did the Sack of King's Landing. The circle is completed. Jaime has paid the price - his right hand, the same hand that killed the Mad King

Comments

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

The theme of oaths, oathbreaking, and the traditional rules of Westeros is one of my favorite themes in the series. It is really interesting to see what the people of Westeros are okay with and what they are not. It is just so full of hypocracy, and it seems like only a few characters, such as Jaime, recognize that.

For instance the Red Wedding broke the guest right rule in a way as horrible as Jaime's kingslaying, it is interesting to see if that act is as universally scorned. Will the Frey's have an even worse reputation?

And the Kingsguard under Joff and Cersei is just awful really, it would be interesting to see what is thought of them outside the few perspectives we get. Are they still seen as this gold standard they used to? And were those previous generations of Kingsguards really that much better? Or is it just totally okay to be awful or compliant with awful actions if the King orders them/is okay with them? The way it appears the last is true, which is pretty sad tbh. I always feel like Jaime, even before killing Aerys, had every right to be disillusioned by the Kingsguard. The oaths are almost a shield they use so they don't have to question the morality of what they or the King is doing.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

These are my favourite themes too, This is why I like Jaime, brienne and Sandor so much, they all are parts of the same puzzle: oaths, knights, oath-breaking.

And yes, I also don't think too many characters are honest (not even with themselves), and all of the honest ones are my personal favourites (although may be they are not the best people in Westeros): Tyrion, Jaime, Brienne, Sandor.

For instance the Red Wedding broke the guest right rule in a way as horrible as Jaime's kingslaying, it is interesting to see if that act is as universally scorned. Will the Frey's have an even worse reputation?

I think frey's reputation was even worse, even to start with. Like Cat's father would never ever touch them with a barge pole. And the other lords too. This is why I am so angry with Robb- he knew who is messing with!!!

And were those previous generations of Kingsguards really that much better?

This is a very good question. I am impatiently awaiting for Baristan Selmy's POV. I want to find something there that will explain why he was just standing by when people were burned alive!!!
My pet theory is that Barristan loved Aerys II (in that,/I> way or some other way, he was the one to rescue the King from Duskendale rebellion) , but I want an explanation!

And the Kingsguard under Joff and Cersei is just awful really, it would be interesting to see what is thought of them outside the few perspectives we get.

We have Arys Oakheart's POV (he was one of the guys beating Sansa), but I do dislike him so , even in his POV. He is so.. weak.

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

I appreciate Sandor's honesty but I could never like him the way I like Jaime and Brienne, but I agree he brings another perspective to the whole oath/knights question. I love how Jaime and Brienne challenge each others beliefs, and especially how Brienne starts to see the greyness in the world instead of just black and white, right and wrong.

I know the Freys were already disliked but I feel like the Red Wedding must have made things worse. What Walder Test did was just horrible and treacherous. I really can't blame Robb though, he had to try and win back the Freys so he could fight the Iron men for the North.

I really want to know what Barriston was thinking too, but I also think he could be biased in his pov in favor of the Targs. I want to know how he was able to justify doing nothing during Aerys atrocities and if he felt the same moral dilemma as Jaime did. Jaime says he 'went away inside', I want to know what Barriston did, if he did anything.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I love Brinne and Jaime. As for Sandor, I want to see him post-Quiet-Isle. I am so curious as what he is going to be like.

I know the Freys were already disliked but I feel like the Red Wedding must have made things worse. What Walder Test did was just horrible and treacherous. I really can't blame Robb though, he had to try and win back the Freys so he could fight the Iron men for the North.

I mean sleeping with Jeyene and angering Freys was stupid. If I could get to Robb, I would have killed him myself! To get himslef, his motehr and all the Northen men killed and for what? Sleeping with a girl??? And it is not as if Frey's weren't notorious and he didn't know about it.

I think the "fame" of the Red Wedding went far , as well, there are some mentionings in Brienne's chapters.

I really want to know what Barriston was thinking too, but I also think he could be biased in his pov in favor of the Targs.

May be he'll be biased, but I found that all the POV's were honest , reveling thngs that were true. Even Cersei who has a strange view of the world revealed things. And I honestly think there is more to the Mad King's story. yes, he has become crazy, but before that/ What was he like before the Duskendale rebellion?

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

I really liked Robb, I think he made mistakes obviously, but they were the mistakes of a boy trying to be a King. I can understand his need for comfort after finding out that Bran and Rickon had been killed, and yes he could have just left her after that one night but he was raised to do the 'honorable' thing and so he married her. It is more another testament to how the vows and traditions of Westeros are so full of problems when viewed from a modern perspective.

I believe all the povs are honest, but that does not mean they can't have hint of bias since the characters each see things differently.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

i got the impression that his "finding" comfort in jeyne was completely planned by tywin. that makes it hard for me to be sympathetic although i will acknowledge his youth was his biggest crime. but its his starkness that killed him. he should have honored his oath.

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

I never got the impression while reading that Tywin was behind them meeting but now that I think about it more it makes sense since Jeyne's mother was giving her that potion. Maybe Jeyne herself wasn't in on it, but her mother...interesting, another thing to think about lol.

I do still find Robb a tragic figure though I agree it was his Starkness that got him killed.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

goodness yes, robb is tragic. he's a young boy that was duped and manipulated. aren't they all at this stage? well maybe not jon but lets see where we are with the starks family at the end of a feast of crows:

ned, cat and robb have each been murdered.

sansa is a prisoner of the crown, married to a wanted murderer, on the run and under the care of a man who lusts after her dead mother and her.

arya is a 10 year old with a trail of corpses behind her and training to become a nameless, faceless assassin.

bran is crippled and looking for a crow north of the wall and rickon is...somewhere.

ALL the starks are tragic at the moment. the beauty of it all is finding out how grrm will change all that. and i have no doubt that he will.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I am with geeklee on Jeyne (gosh, never remember how her name is spelled). BTW, her mother is a descendant of Maggy The Frogg, so I think Sybell did something to Robb (either with magic or with some rape drug :D) . And it is mentioned that she worked for Tywin, so I think Tywin planned the whole thing.

And Robb and his honourable thing - well, didn't this play out so well? Which is yes, back again to the discussion about "good intentions" and honour.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

The theme of oaths, oathbreaking, and the traditional rules of Westeros is one of my favorite themes in the series

i've been thinking about the oaths and vows for a while now. well, since i started thinking r + l = j and hoping for j to become king. (i don't want to spoil anything!) and then the vows jaime and the kingsguard.

so i wonder if all the vow-making and oath taking in westeros isn't folly. i'm trying to figure out what grrm wants to tell us with all the oaths and oath breaking. i probably won't know until the series is done (well i hope i will know by then!) but for now, i think he is trying to say that we are human and these absolute vows (having no love/family, following orders blindly) are distinctly contrary to human nature.

all my speculation of grrm's mind, mind you :)

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

I feel like it is folly too but its such a part of their tradition that its so hard to change. I agree with what you think he is saying the oaths are just to much. It's like Jaime says to Cat in CoK, whatever you do, you are forsaking one vow or the other. I really can't wait to see what happens with.this theme in the rest of the series. I feel like there is potential for there to be a major cultural change in Westeros.

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

Yes I find it very interesting and exciting to think about.

There are also a few characters who if they came to power would help institute this change, the main being Jon and/or Dany. Both seem to have new fresh perspectives on things.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

oops.

sorry, i was editing my comment when you posted yours :) but yes, jon and dany could bring about great change.

i am also curious to see how sansa turns out. she was so traditional at the start of our tale - she could be uber modern (for the era) by the end of the series.

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

its okay lol. Yeah Sansa is another and I always feel like Jaime is kind of modern as well, it'll be interesting if he ever finds her.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

hmmmm.

i hadn't thought about there being a major cultural change in westeros at the end of this series but now that you've mentioned it, there are many cultural institutions that could be gone by the end of this book: the end of wall and the others, women not being able to claim the throne, the end of "absolute" oaths, union of the east and west continents, the end of any one or all of the religions, lack of female knights :)

i hadn't considered a revolution in westeros! very interesting thought to ponder.

edited for clarity

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

I replied above before you deleted lol