Thoughts on Jaime and Kingslaying
Jul. 5th, 2011 01:29 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
alexandralThis is something that always puzzled me : why is everyone , literally everyone hates Jaime for what he did to king Aerys II? I have just re-read some Brienne's chapters where she meets some ordinary people and they say things like: "Jaime Lannister is an evil Kingslayer". Doesn't this seem to be a little unfair? I mean, killing the Mad King that was about to burn up the city was a good thing to do?
However, the cause-effect chain is quite interesting, and I think the answer for the universtal hate of Jaime is actually in the way the events unfolded. Two paragraphs below are taken from Wiki of Ice and Fire and contain the short synopsis of the events:
"Lord Tywin Lannister, who had remained neutral until the Battle of the Trident, marched to the gates of King's Landing with a force of 12, 000 men, claiming loyalty to Aerys II and asking to be let in. Aerys favored the advice of Grand Maester Pycelle over that of his spymaster Varys and opened the gates of the city. The Lannister forces then began to sack the city in Robert's name. Aerys ordered his most recent Hand, the pyromancer Rossart, to ignite the wildfire caches throughout the city, saying, "Let him [Robert] be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes."
Aerys then ordered Jaime Lannister, one of his Kingsguard and Tywin's own son, to kill his father. Instead, Jaime slew Lord Rossart and then murdered Aerys himself on the Iron Throne. Tywin sent his knights Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch to deal with the rest of the royal family, securing the throne for Robert and proving that House Lannister had forsaken the Targaryens forever. Gregor killed the baby crown prince Aegon Targaryen while his mother watched, and then proceeded to rape and murder Princess Elia herself. Amory dragged princess Rhaenys from under her father's bed and killed her. When Eddard Stark arrived shortly thereafter, he found Jaime seated on the Iron Throne and Aerys's corpse slumped below it. Tywin Lannister presented the bodies of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys as tokens of his fealty, laid out beneath the Iron Throne. The resulting argument led to Eddard Stark riding out alone to finish the war in the south. "
From this, Jaime's killing of the Mad King can be viewed as a part of the bigger betrayal by Lord Tywin. This resulted in sack of King's Landing: babies murdered, women raped, etc. So I think it is easy to understand that the onlookers take the event as a whole, and instead of dividing it into "who did what" have a negative perception of the event. From what we know of Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch, the whole city must have suffered rapes and killings. Even more, King Aerys order to burn the city was issued after the sacking of the city already started, so in the cause-event chain, the sacking of the city is the beginning of everything. But this I think is less relevant - not many people seem to know that Aerys intended to burn the city (but unfortunately this is the main argument for Jaime's actions).
As to Jaime, I think he did the right thing by killing Aerys and his pyromancer. Some can argue that there was a chance for Jaime to imprison the Mad King, but if this would have happened, the King Arys would have been killed by Ser Gregor only a little later. There was no way for the King to be out of this alive.
But is Jaime clear of any blame for the Sack of King's Landing? I don't think so. He was, after all, an accessory, as Jaime's murder of the Mad King was an integral part of the events. And in the mind of ordinary people he was the son of Lord Tywin , the man behind the Sack.
What I am trying to say is that whatever I might think of killing the mad King Aerys II (kill him, I say :D) , the events are much more complex than that and the King's death is viewed in people's mind as a part of the whole "rape and kill" event that took place in King's Landing. Which, obviously, was horrific..
In particular, it is clear why Ned Stark was so angry with Jaime: he sees Jaime on the Iron Throne, the King dead. It is not clear if the bodies of the family were already laid out in the front of the Iron Throne, but even if they were not, they would be shortly later... Ned , obviously, was not pleased with this (in fact, the killing of the Royal family is something that will haunt him for years) and the argument between him and Lannisters resulted from here.
It is not clear if painting everyone with the same brush is the right thing to do, but it is a natural thing that happens so easily. Plus, purely objectively, Jaime was an accomplice of Lord Tywin (he was there, he killed the King, he did nothing to stop other atrocities), and by proxy, an accomplice of Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch.
Hmm, everything seems so complex! In short, I think poor Jaime is painted with the same brush as Lord Tywin here, and it is interesting that at the end, he is maimed and tortured by his father's people, the same people that did the Sack of King's Landing. The circle is completed. Jaime has paid the price - his right hand, the same hand that killed the Mad King
However, the cause-effect chain is quite interesting, and I think the answer for the universtal hate of Jaime is actually in the way the events unfolded. Two paragraphs below are taken from Wiki of Ice and Fire and contain the short synopsis of the events:
"Lord Tywin Lannister, who had remained neutral until the Battle of the Trident, marched to the gates of King's Landing with a force of 12, 000 men, claiming loyalty to Aerys II and asking to be let in. Aerys favored the advice of Grand Maester Pycelle over that of his spymaster Varys and opened the gates of the city. The Lannister forces then began to sack the city in Robert's name. Aerys ordered his most recent Hand, the pyromancer Rossart, to ignite the wildfire caches throughout the city, saying, "Let him [Robert] be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes."
Aerys then ordered Jaime Lannister, one of his Kingsguard and Tywin's own son, to kill his father. Instead, Jaime slew Lord Rossart and then murdered Aerys himself on the Iron Throne. Tywin sent his knights Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch to deal with the rest of the royal family, securing the throne for Robert and proving that House Lannister had forsaken the Targaryens forever. Gregor killed the baby crown prince Aegon Targaryen while his mother watched, and then proceeded to rape and murder Princess Elia herself. Amory dragged princess Rhaenys from under her father's bed and killed her. When Eddard Stark arrived shortly thereafter, he found Jaime seated on the Iron Throne and Aerys's corpse slumped below it. Tywin Lannister presented the bodies of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys as tokens of his fealty, laid out beneath the Iron Throne. The resulting argument led to Eddard Stark riding out alone to finish the war in the south. "
From this, Jaime's killing of the Mad King can be viewed as a part of the bigger betrayal by Lord Tywin. This resulted in sack of King's Landing: babies murdered, women raped, etc. So I think it is easy to understand that the onlookers take the event as a whole, and instead of dividing it into "who did what" have a negative perception of the event. From what we know of Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch, the whole city must have suffered rapes and killings. Even more, King Aerys order to burn the city was issued after the sacking of the city already started, so in the cause-event chain, the sacking of the city is the beginning of everything. But this I think is less relevant - not many people seem to know that Aerys intended to burn the city (but unfortunately this is the main argument for Jaime's actions).
As to Jaime, I think he did the right thing by killing Aerys and his pyromancer. Some can argue that there was a chance for Jaime to imprison the Mad King, but if this would have happened, the King Arys would have been killed by Ser Gregor only a little later. There was no way for the King to be out of this alive.
But is Jaime clear of any blame for the Sack of King's Landing? I don't think so. He was, after all, an accessory, as Jaime's murder of the Mad King was an integral part of the events. And in the mind of ordinary people he was the son of Lord Tywin , the man behind the Sack.
What I am trying to say is that whatever I might think of killing the mad King Aerys II (kill him, I say :D) , the events are much more complex than that and the King's death is viewed in people's mind as a part of the whole "rape and kill" event that took place in King's Landing. Which, obviously, was horrific..
In particular, it is clear why Ned Stark was so angry with Jaime: he sees Jaime on the Iron Throne, the King dead. It is not clear if the bodies of the family were already laid out in the front of the Iron Throne, but even if they were not, they would be shortly later... Ned , obviously, was not pleased with this (in fact, the killing of the Royal family is something that will haunt him for years) and the argument between him and Lannisters resulted from here.
It is not clear if painting everyone with the same brush is the right thing to do, but it is a natural thing that happens so easily. Plus, purely objectively, Jaime was an accomplice of Lord Tywin (he was there, he killed the King, he did nothing to stop other atrocities), and by proxy, an accomplice of Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch.
Hmm, everything seems so complex! In short, I think poor Jaime is painted with the same brush as Lord Tywin here, and it is interesting that at the end, he is maimed and tortured by his father's people, the same people that did the Sack of King's Landing. The circle is completed. Jaime has paid the price - his right hand, the same hand that killed the Mad King
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no subject
Date: 2011-07-05 06:39 pm (UTC)I know the Freys were already disliked but I feel like the Red Wedding must have made things worse. What Walder Test did was just horrible and treacherous. I really can't blame Robb though, he had to try and win back the Freys so he could fight the Iron men for the North.
I really want to know what Barriston was thinking too, but I also think he could be biased in his pov in favor of the Targs. I want to know how he was able to justify doing nothing during Aerys atrocities and if he felt the same moral dilemma as Jaime did. Jaime says he 'went away inside', I want to know what Barriston did, if he did anything.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-05 06:48 pm (UTC)I know the Freys were already disliked but I feel like the Red Wedding must have made things worse. What Walder Test did was just horrible and treacherous. I really can't blame Robb though, he had to try and win back the Freys so he could fight the Iron men for the North.
I mean sleeping with Jeyene and angering Freys was stupid. If I could get to Robb, I would have killed him myself! To get himslef, his motehr and all the Northen men killed and for what? Sleeping with a girl??? And it is not as if Frey's weren't notorious and he didn't know about it.
I think the "fame" of the Red Wedding went far , as well, there are some mentionings in Brienne's chapters.
I really want to know what Barriston was thinking too, but I also think he could be biased in his pov in favor of the Targs.
May be he'll be biased, but I found that all the POV's were honest , reveling thngs that were true. Even Cersei who has a strange view of the world revealed things. And I honestly think there is more to the Mad King's story. yes, he has become crazy, but before that/ What was he like before the Duskendale rebellion?
no subject
Date: 2011-07-05 07:08 pm (UTC)I believe all the povs are honest, but that does not mean they can't have hint of bias since the characters each see things differently.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-05 07:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-07-05 07:24 pm (UTC)I do still find Robb a tragic figure though I agree it was his Starkness that got him killed.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-05 07:37 pm (UTC)ned, cat and robb have each been murdered.
sansa is a prisoner of the crown, married to a wanted murderer, on the run and under the care of a man who lusts after her dead mother and her.
arya is a 10 year old with a trail of corpses behind her and training to become a nameless, faceless assassin.
bran is crippled and looking for a crow north of the wall and rickon is...somewhere.
ALL the starks are tragic at the moment. the beauty of it all is finding out how grrm will change all that. and i have no doubt that he will.
no subject
Date: 2011-07-05 08:44 pm (UTC)And Robb and his honourable thing - well, didn't this play out so well? Which is yes, back again to the discussion about "good intentions" and honour.