Rome: Words of Marcus Tullius Cicero/My poor heart is in peices

[alexandral]

I'll try to be quick with this because I need to pick Sasha from school/do our Monday library trip in 20 minutes, but if I don't write things down my heart can burst. :D As balenoptera was saying, what did I do before the age of LJ?

I loved this episode, but my heart is in pieces for everyone. I never thought I would say this about Brutus (I remember thinking during the history classes "at least the man received his comeuppance") I feel such a pity for him, and in a way I understand why he did what he did. But ** shudders ** watching the beautiful and incredibly sad scene in which he tries to wash himself clean and knowing what the future generations are going to think about his acts, I WAS CRYING!!





- Vorenus gone of his rails completely. I don't like him any less for this, but his scenes were very painful to watch. But all props for Kevin MacKidd who did a great job.

- I was actually pleased (if the word pleased can be applied here) that the reason of split between Pullo and Vorenus wasn't anything to do with Aventine. The timing of Pullo's slip of tongue was very very bad, but the rest of the events are very believable for me. So much believable that it hurts.

- But of course being in the army again is going to help Vorenus a little, and then Pullo will find the children and then they are going to be together again


I must admit with shame that my knowledge of Roman history is very weak. Enjoying Rome so much makes me want to understand more about the history, Romean gods, etc. I apologise very much because I should be really finding some literature about this, but if you don't mind filling me in

- Was Agrippa ever in love with Octavia?

- Did Cicero write that fabulous speech in reality? It absolutely has made my day. Roman cenate as presented in this show reminds me of some controversial days in Russian Duma (Senate) where they had a brawl once.


Alexandra's picture of the day: Titus Pullo on a horse speeding ahead to the rescue of his brother's children:





PS: I have to run!!!!!!!!!!! I hope my grammar is only as bad as usual. :D

Comments

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Was Agrippa ever in love with Octavia?

I can’t speak to anyone’s emotional state, but IRL, Agrippa married Octavia’s daughter by Marcellus (who was replaced for the show by Glabius, but who was in fact, alive and well during the events depicted now. He and Octavia had several children as well.) So they have played fast-and-loose with history here.

Did Cicero write that fabulous speech in reality?

Cicero wrote something very similar to that (the Second Phillippic – I linked to it in my post on the episode) and indeed delivered (or wrote, anyway) multiple orations against Marc Antony. (IRL, also, he didn’t run away – his friend persuaded him NOT to appear to deliver the speech in person because they were sure Marc Antony would react as he did on the show!)

They’re called the Philippics because they were modeled on Demosthenes’ speeches against Philip of Macedon, by the way.

I was very angry with Vorenus for being so horrible to Pullo – but I think he knows how horrible he was. And yay for the picture!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you so much for all this information!!

IRL, also, he didn’t run away – his friend persuaded him NOT to appear to deliver the speech in person because they were sure Marc Antony would react as he did on the show!

I thought that running away was rather a clever thing to do. :D

I was very angry with Vorenus for being so horrible to Pullo – but I think he knows how horrible he was. And yay for the picture!

I know, I was so heart-broken for Vorenus. And I am not trying to justify anyone here (because I will like Vorenus "until the end of times" and this liking is not really connected to how good/bad he behaves himself, I am just like this) but Vorenus just is mentally ill, in a very serious way. And I felt it was rather unfortunate that Pullo mentioned Evander at this point of time, I was expecting him to be more careful about this. Though Vorenus is crazy I think for Pullo to say "Okay I f**cked her. Me and every guy..." was wrong. But again, my liking for Pullo goes beyond all this too. :D And he is going to rescue the children as you predicted. :D

EEEEEE! And now I can go and read your post!!!

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

And I felt it was rather unfortunate that Pullo mentioned Evander at this point of time, I was expecting him to be more careful about this.

My take was that he was incredibly careful as long as it mattered - as long as there was a chance that Niobe and Vorenus could have their marriage work out, Pullo kept his mouth shut. And he only said it under incredible provocation - for Vorenus to ask Pullo how Pullo has been a friend to him NOW? How is that even possible?

Though Vorenus is crazy I think for Pullo to say "Okay I f**cked her. Me and every guy..." was wrong.

Oh, but see, here again, I think Pullo was incredibly hurt - he SWORE ON HIS MOTHER'S BONES - we know how much his mother meant to him - and Vorenus completely discounted and didn't believe him after all, so he was all "OK, fine, you jerk, you want to believe whatever you want to believe" so he says the most ridiculous thing possible (I mean, just the question of OPPORTUNITY - since Pullo was with Vorenus most of the time, how the hell would this even have happened? But Vorenus was past thinking about this sort of logic or listening to Pullo at all - how many times does Pullo remind Vorenus that Niobe LOVED him? That HE loves him? And yet Vorenus does not hear this.)

I actually think it's good Pullo snapped back at Vorenus - I think Vorenus always takes Pullo completely for granted, and I also think he has underestimated this guy a lot and it was nice to see Pullo, though still loving his friend, just know that there wasn't going to be any way out of this.

I do think that Vorenus WANTED to push Pullo away. But ... he hurt Pullo very badly, I think, and I don't like that he did that.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

And he only said it under incredible provocation

Unfortunately, the type of secret Pullo kept is like double-edged sword. When it is revealed, it is usual that the other person feels betrayed. "You haven't told me that you know!!" Whatever a person in the Pullo's position did this for, a person in Vorenus' position is not liable to forgive it easily.


Oh, but see, here again, I think Pullo was incredibly hurt - he SWORE ON HIS MOTHER'S BONES - we know how much his mother meant to him - and Vorenus completely discounted and didn't believe him after all, so he was all "OK, fine, you jerk, you want to believe whatever you want to believe" so he says the most ridiculous thing possible

I don't know. I am not trying to criticize Pullo (because it was indeed a very difficult situation), but saying something like this either means Pullo doesn't understand Vorenus's mental state (and we saw it is not the case because Pullo was saying how he know Vorenus wants to die) or it means he just had that urge to hurt the other person which everyone has once in a while in an argument like that. I am not criticizing Pullo, but it could have been better if he just hit Vorenus. Or something.

I do think that Vorenus WANTED to push Pullo away. But ... he hurt Pullo very badly, I think, and I don't like that he did that.

Oh, I think they hurt each other pretty badly. I think Vorenus believed what Pullo said about Niobe. I have seen people in the break-down state believe even sillier things.

[teh-haley.livejournal.com]

queenofthorns has already answered to your questions, so I don't need to ;)
at the High School I studied Latin for 5 years and I red so many things that Cicero wrote (in Latin) and even thoug it's not that easy to understand, it's very interesting and I think that if you find some good translation, they're worth to read!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

it's very interesting and I think that if you find some good translation, they're worth to read!

Oh, I am very interested to read them now. Are your watching "Rome"? . I wonder what do you think about all this.:D

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

alexandral, if you're interested in this and Cicero in particular, may I recomend Anthony Everit's biography of Cicero (it's called Cicero)? And I cannot recommend highly enough Tom Holland's Rubicon, which basically is all the political background of the show and is fascinating in its own right.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much, QoT! I will definitely check some of this up. I loved Cicero's speech in this episode and I definitely want to know more about ancient Rome.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

The Tom Holland book is very, very well-written, so it's a lot like reading a novel (I stayed up until 2 a.m. finishing it even though I knew what happened. Hee!)

And Everitt (maybe it's two ts, I can't remember!) used a lot of Cicero's own letters in his biography so the guy who emerges has this very engaging sense of humor. He seems like someone you'd like to chat with.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

And Everitt (maybe it's two ts, I can't remember!) used a lot of Cicero's own letters in his biography so the guy who emerges has this very engaging sense of humor. He seems like someone you'd like to chat with.

It seems like they didn't give Cicero justice in "Rome" up to now, he was emerging as somehow very coward character. But again, it could be just a mental connection in my head because the actor (David Bamber) has played Mr. Collins

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

No, I think they've made Cicero more weaselly than he seemed to be from his biography.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I am glad they relented at the end!!

[teh-haley.livejournal.com]

I'm not watching Rome but only because Italy networks aren't airing it. I hope they will, now I'm curious!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I hope they will too! I am interested to see what you think - when other countries make adaptations of Russian books (like "Anna Karenina") I always pick on things that are "non-Russian". :D

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Completely OT but what happened to the lovely Goong icon? I planned to steal it but it was gone :(

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, dear! I am so sorry - I have decided that it wasn't "me" at the end, but if you like it is absolutely yours, here:

http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o51/alexandraleaving/goong/

Please let me know if you would like different text!!!!

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I love it so much!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I am glad it is of some use!!!!!

[elspethsheir.livejournal.com]

I found myself in deep sympathy with Brutus. If you'd told me that last season, I'd be all "Pffft".

knowing what the future generations are going to think about his acts

Good thing we have Rome, then, to balance that out!

I see that QoT has already answered your questions, so I'll just say - Yay for Rome picspams!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Good thing we have Rome, then, to balance that out!

EEEEEE! Seriously, this must give a rise to the interest in Roman history for sure. :D

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

Yay for Pullo riding to the rescue of the children! After all these dark and angsty episodes, it was good to end it with some hope!

I loved this episode, but my heart is in pieces for everyone.

Oh yes - I feel very much the same way. Strangely enough I even felt so sad for Atia. She can be incredibly annoying, but the scene where she sat on the bed or when she was crying and drinking in the bath - it was as if all life was drained from her. She might say her son is dead and that she has no son, but I feel the loss of Octavian is breaking her. No matter how horrid Atia can be there was never any doubt that she loved her children.

I felt there was a certain parallel between her and Vorenus in that they both deny the people close to them (a son or a brother), and that decision is destroying them.

And the scene with Vorenus crying on the floor just about killed me. I felt truly sorry for Pullo yes, but my heart broke for Vorenus. This is the man who was always so proper and well presented, so in control - and now he is sobbing uncontrollably on the floor. It was simply heart wrenching.

All in all Rome delivered again. :) (and indeed yay for LJ to discuss it! )

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

And the scene with Vorenus crying on the floor just about killed me. I felt truly sorry for Pullo yes, but my heart broke for Vorenus.

I think that scene is what redeemed Vorenus in this episode for me – because it actually HURT to watch him lash out at Pullo, of all people, to accuse HIM of treachery and disloyalty. But at the end, I realized that Vorenus knows all too well what he’s rejected in rejecting Pullo.

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

I think that scene is what redeemed Vorenus in this episode for me

Oh yes, I agree very much. Vorenus lashing out at Pullo was awful, and I was actually amazed that Pullo managed to stay calm as long as he did. (Guess it shows how much he has changed and how much he loves his brother)For some of the things Vorenus said were down right hellish. ("What have you ever done for me?" And Pullo with tears in his eyes and...*sob* I'm getting teary just writing about it.)

And to go from that rage and fury to fetal and crying was heart wrenching - but it also showed that Vorenus isn't completely lost to the darkness.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I think Atia is probably starting to realize that she made a wrong choice - she lost her son (and I also 100 percent sure that she loves him) and at the same time she is losing Mark Antony. As with Brutus, it is so sad to see how some of our choices are catching up with us.

And the scene with Vorenus crying on the floor just about killed me. I felt truly sorry for Pullo yes, but my heart broke for Vorenus. This is the man who was always so proper and well presented, so in control - and now he is sobbing uncontrollably on the floor. It was simply heart wrenching

Absolutely. I was thinking about it a little, and I think he actually believed what Pullo said in a huff - "Okay I f**cked her. Me and every guy...". That tells something about his mental state, but at the same time it makes make feel so much for him.

After all these dark and angsty episodes, it was good to end it with some hope!

This is true - somewhere in the middle of this episode I thought "O my poor heart, HOW can it all get better?", but they provided us with the hope already. Thank you. dear "Rome" creators.

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

and I also 100 percent sure that she loves him

Oh absolutely. An to lack one of her children is hurting her. In the last two episodes my reaction to Atia has been somewhat "meh", but this ep made me regain a lot of sympathy.

I found the dinner scene between her and Marc Antony particularly interesting. She manages to manipulate him in a way that she could never manipulate Caesar or her son. I'm not saying she chose Marc Antony because she can manipulate him, but maybe the fact that she can, just a little, sweetened the deal?

And yes - so grateful that they ended it with a shot of Pullo riding. But which direction is he riding? To find Vorenus or the children? I'm confused now.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

And yes - so grateful that they ended it with a shot of Pullo riding. But which direction is he riding? To find Vorenus or the children? I'm confused now.

I am confused too, but my guess is he is off to find Vorenus.

In completely unconnected - I liked Agrippa very much!!

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

Yes! Agrippa was wonderful! I love how he went from proud soldier to stuttering young man with a crush. Hee. Hopefully we will see more of him in the next episode!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I love how he went from proud soldier to stuttering young man with a crush

Hopefully!!! This made my little shippy heart beat faster, even knowing from the history WHOM Octavia married.

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

This made my little shippy heart beat faster

I must admit that mine did too. They were very sweet together.
Maybe they will become unhappy lovers? Unhappily married, but secretly in love with each other? Hee. Now I'm wildly speculating of course.
I also suspect I'm going to need an Agrippa icon. ;)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Unhappily married, but secretly in love with each other? Hee. Now I'm wildly speculating of course.

Yes, I totally don't understand why this can not be done. :D Secret love which is lost in history????

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

Secret love which is lost in history????

*g* I'd be all for this! ;D

They just had such wonderful chemistry - and the way they started talking like they had know each other for a long time, and not just met. These are the kind of things that sell me on a romantic relationship. Hee.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

They just had such wonderful chemistry - and the way they started talking like they had know each other for a long time, and not just met.

Oh, I noticed this too! It looks like Octavian was saying some nice things about his sister. :D

[picasso-trigger.livejournal.com]

Yay for Pullo riding to the rescue of the children! After all these dark and angsty episodes, it was good to end it with some hope!

Is he riding to rescue the children or to retrieve Vorenus before he leads himself into certain doom?

My initial thought is he's after Vorenus, I was surprised to see two differences of opinion here.

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

I think you initial thought is the correct one. I was a little confused here. :) It seems he is riding to Vorenus, and I suppose there after to the children. ;)

[jenandhughlove.livejournal.com]

Please, could you upload this episode for me. I've requested already, but i didn't receive answer. Help! Thank you in advance. :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, - my premium megaupload account is still on (though not for long so I will not be able to do it next time) , I will do this for you. Do you use torrents? Please let me know if you do, I have a link for this episode's torrent.

[jenandhughlove.livejournal.com]

No megaupload! I've always problems with it. Another free services it's fine (like sendspace, mediafire, ecc..). Thank you and sorry if i disturb you. :) p.s it's seems alright now about my request (you know where..), but if you want to do it the same, i'd appreciate. Thank you for your kindness. :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, I am glad it is sorted now, because I have started uploading it into Megaupload. If this is fine with you, I just stop. Enjoy - it was another great episode.!!!!!

[jenandhughlove.livejournal.com]

I'll do it. Thank you, as always. :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Thank you :D

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

Everyone's already said everything about this episode, which is a good thing, because pretty much the only thing I'm capable of saying at this point is how it broke my heart to see Lucius sobbing on the ground. I felt absolutely gutted by this episode.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I felt absolutely gutted by this episode.

To be honest, I closed my eyes by the end of Pullo/Vorenus' fight, I could not cope anymore. I hope they will not keep us in this state for long, it is about time for things to become a little happier.

[jenandhughlove.livejournal.com]

Just a couple of comments about this episode:

1. It was a little bit boring (little bit, maybe because Atia wasn't the same without Octavian).
2. My God, i always liked Brutus but in this episode (especially the scene in the water, he was hot! :). I have a question: but Why Brutus was in Persia? (maybe i don't understand much because my english, but i think it was still with Servilia in Rome).
3. The scene where Mark Antony and Cicero talked in his house and the way Antony likes his plants...priceless!
I love this character!
4. All stuff between Vorenus and Pullo. It's interesting how their relationship has changed, but i'm feel sorry for Pullo when Vorenus thought that he might be one of Niobe's lovers.

I can't wait for the next episode. :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

EEEE! I appreciate your input!!

1. I know what you mean, I was feeling Atia is not having the best times, but I was too heart-broken for Vorenus and Pullo to feel bored.

2. I have a question: but Why Brutus was in Persia?

I think they don't go for an exact adherence to the history in "Rome", I just accepted it

3. That was one very interesting scene :D

4. My heart is broken for both of them, but yes, the things Vorenus was saying are completely unjustified.

I can't wait for the nest episode too. :D