On Robb Stark

[alexandral]

Dear friends, I am so sorry for the second day of ranting but I feel compelled to tell you all what I think about this over-celebrated character because some discussion on over-celebrated characters arisen in yesterday’s comments.

Disclaimer: These are just my thoughts, and I do not hold the right to absolute truth and welcome discussion. To tell you the truth, this week is the week students are back to Universities, and I am having a case of a terrible cranky. Did I tell you I work in one of UK Universities (in Information services department as "systems analyst" which is another word for database programmer)? I hate the first "back to school" weeks mostly because the traffic becomes unbearable. The situation evens out a bit later on (it is known that one only attends their lectures in September and October), but late September and October is a killer traffic-wise.

So: What about Robb?

One of the most puzzling (to me) phenomena that I see on LJ is immense popularity of Robb Stark. Recently, I have made few polls in LJ ASOIAF communities and he always tends to be near the top. To me personally, this character (although quite sympathetic) never held too much value, because:

- He is not a main character
- He is not even a POV character
- There is nothing too interesting or too special about him. He is quite good at strategic thinking but in the books it is quite clear that at least half of his success was due to Catelyn uncle’s (Brynden Tully ) participation in his campaign.
- He slept with a girl when he agreed to be married to another person
- He broke the word given to a very dangerous bunch of people (which was criminally silly)
- This led to thousands of his men, his mother, and even his wolf dying a terrible death.

I have been trying to think of explanations for his popularity, but all I could gather is:

- Robb is played by a young attractive male actor. Is this a good enough reason? I will not go as far as claim any "sexism!" or "ageism!" or any other explanations, but one wonders. :D But if I have ever seen an over-celebrated character, it is Robb in my opinion.

PS: BTW, I think Robert Madden is fabu!

PS2: I think Rhaegar and other "white knights" are also over-celebrated, just not as much. For one thing, Rhaegar was the Crown Prince

Comments

[charlie-bz.livejournal.com]

It has to be the actor. I'm new to the fandom so I can't say how the character was received before the show. But, yeah, the actor.

Actually, Robb's characterization bugged me a bit because we didn't really get to know him.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think the same. I think Martin never thought Robb to be too important and always had him in mind for "the kill", hence the lack of characterization.

I have seen one poll from another source(other than LJ) and although Robb is popular (I think 15? something?) , he is not even close to top 5.

[rivertempest.livejournal.com]

It may be because a majority of folks have only seen the series or read the one book, and so know nothing of future events that Robb is a part of, or brings about. If one only goes by the tv series, it shows Robb in a favorable light - avenging his father's death, general bad-assery, etc.

Just a thought.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

No, the same happened in the book community where the majority of folks come from book-reading side.

[rivertempest.livejournal.com]

Ah, well then... you got me there. Like you said, must be the actor.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, and the fact that the show gave him some of the things the other characters (like Brynden Tully who was one of the cornerstones of Robb's campaign) did in the books , so that to make him more "heroic", hence increase the eye-candy value.

[shapinglight]

Not having read the books (well, I'm currently struggling with book 1 but not doing terribly well), I would think you must be right. I'd assumed Robb was going to be a main character. He certainly seems that way in the show.

ETA: should add, it's one of those serendipity things really, like Spike in Buffy the Vampire Slayer. He was meant to be a disposable half-season villain, but the actor was so good they kept him and he ended up being quite an important character. Richard Madden has obviously brought something to Robb that isn't in the books. I wonder where they'll go with it?

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

yes, I think the way the show pushed eye-candy Robert Madden forward is the main reason.

Oh NOO!!!!!!!!!!! If they decide to keep Robb alive after Red Wedding in the show I will most likely stop watching it because it will be too different from the books.

[lydzi.livejournal.com]

I do think they're way too excited about the Red Wedding (as much as us tbh) to let him live throught it ^^. Sad but well. I will forever cry at that terrible missed opportunity of Robb and Margaery Tyrell's wedding. Catelyn why didn't you though about it right away? :(

[dekyria.livejournal.com]

I agree with you soooo much.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

I loved Robb before I knew Richard was playing him. I love basically all the characters though lol. I just love Robb because he is a really kind and good person, he treats Jon with equal respect when you know he could be bitter and dislike him. He is just as good of an older brother as Jon. I am also the oldest so identify with that part of him a lot. Idk I just think he is very tragic and love him lol

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, I totally get it why someone can like him, but statistically, for a non-main character (already dead one too ;D) to at the top in the polls - I don't think this is an explanation strong enough? What do you think?

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

Well for me it depends what I've last read when I rank my favorite characters. Jaime is always number 1 but the rest vary a lot. If I have just read any of the first 3 books I would most likely include Robb as one of my top 3 characters. So with the show I think a lot of people just think of Game of Thrones since that is most recent (plus I am sure Richard's looks do help) and choose Robb as a favorite. I think the shows added scenes with him have made him even more popular because you see more of him as this bad ass leader.

[kem-viva.livejournal.com]

Oops I meant top 5 characters not top 3 but it always changes lol I like too many for lists xD

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I think your description of him is just the same as I understand him. I like the guy: he is a good brother (he is the one to remember poor neglected Rickon when all the rest of the family as much as forgotten the boy), he is nice to Jon and Bran and his sisters. he is a good son and good to his mother.

But he is not the main character, and never will be.

i am surprised by your comment that many book readers are big fans of his.

I mean - i did the polls in LJ community that is primary book community (as opposed to TV show community) and he is always among the top characters.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

oops. you were already replying to me when i edited my comment. sorry :O

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

i think it is the actor as well. and i expect his popularity to increase next season as i have heard rumors that hbo is going to really up his romance with jeyne so the series can have a love story. that will put a very different spin on him breaking his oath to marry a frey and will make him quite the martyr after the red wedding. which i never thought about him. i just thought he was a capable but very young man in over his head and completely inexperienced about the world he was playing in. but so are several other characters in westeros.

i am surprised by your comment that many book readers are big fans of his. i can only attribute that to the huge stark mania that most of the fandom has. after all, robb was working towards avenging his father and restoring his family's honor and power. plus, the freys really handled their completely justifiable anger in the most hideous and shameful manner, so that can only create more support for robb.

as a brother, he showed a great deal of love and support for all his family - even jon and theon. and he immediately assumes the role of man of winterfell when crisis hits his family, home and the north. he is a good guy but still, he is just a minor character and is totally overrated, in my humble opinion.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I just re-post it here because I am a completist:

I think your description of him is just the same as I understand him. I like the guy: he is a good brother (he is the one to remember poor neglected Rickon when all the rest of the family as much as forgotten the boy), he is nice to Jon and Bran and his sisters. he is a good son and good to his mother.

But he is not the main character, and never will be.

i am surprised by your comment that many book readers are big fans of his.

I mean - i did the polls in LJ community that is primary book community (as opposed to TV show community) and he is always among the top characters.

[rachel2205.livejournal.com]

I do think it's Richard but I don't think it's just the eye candy thing. Maybe it is for some of the twittery sort of fan girls, but I honestly can list Robb as one of my very favourite things about the TV show because I think Richard does such a brilliant job of fleshing out his character and making him incredibly nuanced. And he acts very well with others, particularly Michelle.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

To be completely honest, it is both. I can't deny it - Richard is a good actor, but so are many other "older" actors who give real good performances. That show is has many good nuanced performances.

But I think the eye-candy (and what I call hero-candy) is also a big reason in his popularity, as far as averages are concerned, if not the biggest. I have ranted about this somewhere else, and as this is the day for rants: I think making Robb into so much of a "hero" in the TV show is "against the spirit of the books" (yes, i am that serious :D) as books are mostly telling us that everything is not black-and-white.

Edit: Also I can't understand HBO with pushing Robb's storyline forward so much. Yes, it might affect the ratings positively now, but what are they going to do with the fallout from Red Wedding?

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

I suspect it is the actor as well. Madden does a decent enough job, and Robb is a character it is easy to like - after all he doesn't hang out with weird red priestesses, push children out of the window or tell people to go bugger themselves with a sword.

Which is rather my problem with Robb. Not the fact that he is a decent person, but rather that I find him uninteresting when compared to other, more complex characters like Stannis or Jaime.

As someone who likes Cat I just hope that Robb's popularity won't sidetrack her from the story. Part of what I liked about that part of the narrative was how it showed war from the perspective of a woman who kept loosing her children in struggle, and so you had the glory of war and the Young Wolf on one hand, and Cat desperately trying to rescue her children on the other. I just thought it was a clever way for Martin to comment on the cost and horrors of war. If they focus too much on Robb as the hero I'm afraid they'll loose that.

Re: Rhaegar. I'm fascinated by Rhaegar as a character, but I don't really understand the need to proclaim him as "the best thing ever". Some people in the series think highly of him, to be sure, but if there is one thing ASOIAF has shown is that POV can be misleading. Before I can see how Rhaegar was so grand, I need to know what happened in regards to Lyanna. We're told that he loved her, yet we never really learn of her feelings in the matter. I rather hope it was consensual, but you never know.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, this is exactly MY problem with Robb: he is not that interesting!

I don't think Cat's story is in danger in teh TV show - the actress doing a great job and has many fans. Even me cranky grumpy me, if not constantly being being told by the fandom how perfect Cat is, I might have even turned into her avid fan (if left to my own devices). ** sigh ** here, I am honest. Michelle Fairley is lovely, I will not lie. She looks like my friend I had ages ago in Russia, and she had a similar character too - very feisty, without really thinking it through.

I assume Rhaegar/Lyanna was consensual , because the story doe not make sense otherwise. it is just like one of those things like I am sure Ned wasn't the father of Ashara's baby.

[lydzi.livejournal.com]

I always loved Robb. I can really vouch about the fact that the actor and his pretty face has really nothing to do with it. Well it doesn't hurt XD but it doesn't emphasize or anything.
I have insane for characters who are not necessarly in the front I guess ^^. Rickon, Meera, Margaery... There's a richness about those characters that make everything possible and tangible.
Robb, is more than just a random character, he is Hope when you begin ACOK. At least that's how I saw him. Hope and Revenge. You usually see him through Catelyn so maybe I'm influenced by her love for him (which is obvious ^^). I was totally pushing for him while reading. I wanted him to be victorious, to be everything Ned didn't had the chance to be. He holds the Stark banner. It was so so painful when I read the RW.
Also he holds all those qualities Sansa speaks of :). He's kind, well behaved, handsome (ah ah remember how Myrcella was all smiling at his arms? ^^), caring for his family, brave and, dare I say, "chevaleresque". He wants to do good. He's also a bit naive which would be cute if we weren't at war (because you really think Frey was going to wave off that huge affront made to his family Robb? Really? :/).

The only quack is his marriage. I don't care about what people say, I will never view his marriage with Jeyne as a love story. It is not. It's a trap and he just fell right into it. I do not hate him for this because same old honour stuff lead his father to the same destiny but... really :/.

Well that's all. I cried for Robb's death. He's a Stark therefore I will always have special feelings for him I guess ^^.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I will rant as the most ranty person in the Universe in Robb/jeyne is turned into a "doomed love story".

[lydzi.livejournal.com]

OMG... the mere prospect makes me cringe. Count me with you for the ranting.

[lydzi.livejournal.com]

Re-reading this all thread I think I missed the point lol. Yeah..; now I get what you're saying. Robb, as much as I love him, I will never put him in my top 3. I don't even put Rickon or Victarion in my top 3 which says it all. They don't do enough "stuff" (for now héhé) for me to put them in that position.

Maybe he's a symbol of House Stark. And I see lots of dislike for Jon (he's 50:50 a bit like Tyrion and Dany) so I guess it's a transfer? I don't know.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

yes, I can perfectly understand why someone can love Robb , but when I take the poll results and see him at the top? BTW, I might be mistaken about top 3. But "top something close" is close. ;D

yes, my main question is - He doesn't do enough stuff!!!!

yes, everyone likes Starks.

[lydzi.livejournal.com]

Probably because he is big now. Then again people favour the young characters usually. Arya, Dany, Jon, Robb apparently. They are not "tainted" yet by their actions so they appear in a very pristine light.
And Robb has been part of one of the most memorable chapter in the book making him very proeminent.

That is all guesses because I'm not sure ^^.

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

I'm not gonna lie. I don't care much for Robb in the books. My main reaction is to just yell "Listen to your mother, young man!"

But Richard Madden is goooorgeous, imo. And I do think the show and Richaard are trying to make him a deeper character. So tv!Robb>book!Robb.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

THIS IS EXACTLY WAS MY REACTION.

Richard is rather nice. Not "I am going to faint any minute" nice for me, but still very nice. As I said to rachel2250, my main problem with the TV show making Robert into a hero is that I think one of the main "cornerstone" features of ASOIAF books is that there are no heroes there, everything is not black and white! (Well, apart from Brienne, but I just love her too much ) .

And on a purely practical level - having Robert as a hero and Robert/Jeyne as the love story for all the ages in the season 2 might help the ratings, but what will happen with the ratings after the Red Wedding .

Also - I want my Blackfish.

[sky-magenta.livejournal.com]

I've always loved Robb a great deal (I am Starks girl after all...) and even though we only got to see him trough Cat's chapters, I always felt like he was so much like Ned and that made me adore him in a way.
I do admit that I paid more attention to him in the series, because yes Richard Madden did a fabulous job, but also because we got to see more of him on the show then in the books in some way.
I've always been glad that Robb didn't end up marrying a Frey and while he broke his word, he also did the honourable thing by marrying Jeyne, so there's something to be said for that as well.
For those who haven't read the books I guess Robb could looks like one of the 'main' characters (especially in the last three episodes), I think he might have had overall more screentime than Jaime. His good looks play a very huge role as well, no doubt about that :D

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I can't deny the good looks are there. :D

I thought that Frey girl (who ended up marrying Edmure) was quite nice, and I felt sorry for her as her wedding was turned into a horror, so I was fine for her to marry Robb . It could have been nice if she could have been whisked away by Robb.

I think he might have had overall more screentime than Jaime.

I guess this is why I am not happy. :D On a serious level, I am not happy with the fact that he has become so much of a hero, as I always thought one of the main themes of ASOIAF was that there is no heroes, that nothing is black and white.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Hm, in the books Robb is a background character, he never gets a POV and thus remains a bit sketchy.

In the tv-show he has far more personality, mainly because there is an actor playing him, giving him a 3D structure he simply does not posses in the book.

I think it fits the character to be popular in this phase, he's the young celebrated hero. Things take a turn, that's Martin. His death will be all the more shocking and interesting.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I hope things will just take turn. I am bracing myself for the season 2, though because the creators sort of hinted that they might go full-way with Robb/Jeyne and I really don't want this relationship to be turned into what it is not - big doomed love.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

We never learn much about Robb/Jayne in the books. From his POV it's certainly big doomed love but since we only see everybody else's it's a teenage hormone bomb's folly.

But I think these are just different sides of the same coin. Which I think is something quite unique in Martin's way of describing romance, it's almost always romantic for the people involved, while the people outside of it see the triviality. And the process of falling out of love is seeing clear again, for Sansa, for Catelynn, for Dany.

[marinshellstone.livejournal.com]

I'm going to have to agree with you and say it's a combo of the attractive young actor and the writing on the show that fleshes Robb out a bit more.

Jon Snow was already considered hot and sexy and loveable and all that in the books for most fangirls, and casting Kit Harington as our favorite LC just put that through the roof. ;)

What bugs me about Robb's shitty decision making is that in fandom, all of the women get a lot of vitriolic hate about their shitty decisions - Catelyn, Dany, Sansa, even Cersei - but the men, less so.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

You haven't heard me rant about Robb's decisions then. :D If there is one single decision that is singularly stupid in the whole series so far (apart from Theon's attacking Winterfell) it has to be Robb and his inability to keep his pants on.

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

I always thought Robb was interesting in the books as a sort of object lesson in well-meaning shortsightedness or something. I had hoped he'd learn and grow up to be stronger and smarter than he was so far, so his death meant the loss of potential but didn't leave a vacuum behind him as the death of a more powerful character would.

In the show? Yeah, gotta be the actor. He's not my type - and is much too young to interest me, besides - but he's clearly got a huge fanbase, and I think that's got to be coloring the poll voting.