Game of Thrones: big age difference pairings in historical fiction.

[alexandral]

There is something I have found very interesting whilst reading shapinglight's LJ. Something I want to ask : what do you think of pairings with big age difference , and by big I mean over 10 years, at least?



For example, Dany, who is 15 (well, at least she is supposed to be 15 in the Game of Thrones HBO) and Jorah who is 49 (I think ) ? I personally love the pairing!

I might be in a complete minority, but the age differences do not bother me in historical (or history-related, like Game of Thrones) fiction. If it was considered old enough for a girl to be married at 13-15 (often to an older man) in the world of the book/show, I accept it, I do not want that world by our standards. In my brain I do the substitution 13-15 = marriageable age in this society.

I think mostly this has to do with the stories my gran used to tell me. She was married at 13 to a guy 10 years her senior. This was the age to get married in Russian villages in 1920s, so she did. It was a happy marriage, they lived happily together until he died in WW2.

I often think why the marriageable age (especially for girls) was quite often a lot lower in the "olden days", and I think this mostly had do with the short life span and high death rate in babies.

This all said, I do not at all approve of a 15-year old having a relationship with someone who is 49 years old in our day and age. I will be the first one to shout "Evil!!!!!!!!!"! I feel there must be a contradiction there , but what can I do.

PS: I thould stop obsessing so much over Game of Thrones, shouldn't I?

Comments

[girl-undone.livejournal.com]

I find it really refreshing that you can separate 'this is what happened then' from today's thinking. Most people want it changed to fit to today's standards. Maybe it's all my Old World blood, but I feel the same way. That 51 year old actor who just married a 16 year old? Disgusting! But if it was the 15th century, it would have been normal and no one would have batted an eye, so if it was portrayed in a book of the period, I would not be disgusted.

Just in case I miss it, happy early birthday!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think for me it is separating the two worlds! I actually find it unsettling when I read historical fiction which "does not play by the rules" of the era. It thouws me out wold-building wise, and confuses me.

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!

[girl-undone.livejournal.com]

Exactly! This is why I so often hate the trope of the anachronistic woman who is can do anything a man can do, only better (!) in historical fiction. I'm not saying there weren't exceptions, of course! But mostly it drives me insane because, no, a street rat in Medieval Europe would not know how to read or write!

[shapinglight]

PS: I thould stop obsessing so much over Game of Thrones, shouldn't I?

I keep telling myself this. :sigh:

Is Dany supposed to be only 15 in the TV show? Fortunately, Emilia Fox doesn't look it, unlike the girl who plays Sansa, who really is 15, I think. I know Dany is supposed to be younger in the books, but in the show she looks to be in her early 20s, so yes, it is still a big age gap between her and Jorah but not quite as bad as all that.

Also, I don't know how they were directed to play the roles, but I think the initial dynamic set up between characters in a relationship with this much of an age difference can make a big difference as to how it's perceived, and I don't think either Iain Glen or Emilia Fox has played it as a father/daughter thing.

I'm not bothered by age differences in historical fics either. It's something that happened, mostly as you say because of the short life span and high death rate and the big power imbalance between the sexes.

Doesn't mean I think it's a good thing, just that it happened/can happened. And in fact, I don't normally like such relationships in fiction. The reason why this one works for me is because of the inverted power dynamic. She is more powerful than him.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Dany is supposed to be 15 in the show, see here: http://www.westeros.org/GoT/Characters/Entry/3538/ . She is 13 in the books.

It completely confuses me that she does not look 15 , but I am a literal thinker - the show creators say she is 15, so she is 15. At the end of the day, there are some girls in my daughter's class that look 18 (real age 12), I do not want to have double standards for girls who LOOK the age and the girls who don't.

Do you mean Emilia Clarke (or do I not know something :D)?

I think for me the world-building matters an awful lot, and it confuses me when in the fiction that is supposed to be historical-period related we get relationships (or anything else) the way it did not used to happen at that day and age. So, in example: I find it confusing when in historical fiction we get a wonder-woman character who is better than men at everything, because this is not the way it used to happen. Dany is a little like this, BTW, which makes me slightly unsure.


Doesn't mean I think it's a good thing, just that it happened/can happened. And in fact, I don't normally like such relationships in fiction.

I think I rather prefer to see it the way "it used to be", instead of " they way I want it to be". So, I don't usually think too much about the age in historical fiction. I don't think it is a good thing, but I rather prefer to see things the way they were? You know, one of my big bees in the bonnet is that there is a movement to adapt the old books, like "Tom Sawyer" where some "offensive" words have been removed. This has nothing to do which age gaps, but in my mind these two things are connected - sometimes I think there is a wish to change the history.


The reason why this one works for me is because of the inverted power dynamic. She is more powerful than him.

This is an important moment, but I guess for me it is still mostly because of "OMPH! Iain Glen is hot!" than anything else. Yep, am shallow.

I hope any of this makes sens!

[shapinglight]

the show creators say she is 15, so she is 15.

Well, if they say it, I suppose it's so. She doesn't look 15, though. As for the actress's name, I confess I haven't the least clue, except that her first name is Emilia. I just said Fox because I had a vague recollection there was an actress called Emilia Fox. ;)

I agree about world building, but I don't think I would find Dany's powerfulness (is that a word?) anachronistic in a fantasy context. After all, the society may have similarities to mediaeval society but it's not it.

That said, again I'm speaking without knowledge. I've no idea what GRRM has said on the matter.

I do agree that historical novels don't really work if the characters are written with modern sensibilities, though of course none of us can really say how a person living in such times thought and felt. We can only take an educated guess.

but I guess for me it is still mostly because of "OMPH! Iain Glen is hot!"

:) Yes, well that too. I've always thought so, just never seen him in quite such a physical role before.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I agree about world building, but I don't think I would find Dany's powerfulness (is that a word?) anachronistic in a fantasy context. After all, the society may have similarities to mediaeval society but it's not it.

I thought Dany had enough of obstacles in her way that were typical to the male-oriented society (and she will have more of those in the future).

[shapinglight]

That's for sure. I still think the development of her relationship with Khal Drogo is dealt with in a fairly perfunctory manner, but there's a lot more to it than I first thought, as I'm discovering on rewatching.

Plenty to think about.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think in the books, where Dany's story is given more time 9as everything else), the transition works a bit better, but still, I think the show did a good job too.

[stoopid-silly.livejournal.com]

I don't have a problem with it, in general, because yeah the "historical" context is important. I don't really mind Dany with Jorah or anyone older really because he's powerful and independent on her own and the relationship isn't imbalanced. I do have a problem with SanSan for that reason, not simply because she's young and he's old.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I think Sansa/Sandor is a different relationship (and I agree to the imbalance of power at the start), for me it is something that is there for both characters to change, where there isn't really any possibility of "consummation", and this is how I like it - something that pushes characters to grow (I have seen much porn about the two, but I am sure this is not what MArtin meant :D). I view him as a deeply tragic character that is meant to die for her. And yes, if they meet again and the balance of power has changed - I might reconsider the consummation bit. But I still like it because it is a different type of relationship (it is a common place to compare it with beauty and the Beast, and that waht it is). OK, don't start me on this.

But with Dany/Jorah, I feel, we are meant to see the relationship as something with a possibility of actually "happily ever after, much sex and babies". But I like it too, because as you say, there is no inbalance of power, hence, I don't see any problem with consummation. But I might be wrong. I was very very upset when that thing with Jorah has happened ** is cryptic ** I still like the relationship, but mostly because I like Ser Jorah worshipping Dany.

[stoopid-silly.livejournal.com]

Yeah I actually agree with you about Sansan!! Their relationship and interest in each other is interesting and important to both of them. But I don't want anything to happen between them unless it's further down the road and a lot has changed. I guess I'm just against the way most people ship sansan, but not against sansan all together. I don't want him to show up and save her from littlefinger though. I don't want this more than anything I don't want in all the books!!!

Yeah I don't mind Dany/Jorah at all and kind of ship it. I felt the sparks and it doesn't seem icky. But mostly I just felt bad for Jorah, so sad. He didn't deserve his punishment.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

hee! I have seen people write much porn about Robb/Jon and all other ships too. It is natural, the way to escape into some alrena reality thing- what if? even though it is never going to happen?

I don't want him to show up and save her from littlefinger though. I don't want this more than anything I don't want in all the books!!!

** laughs ** Why? It is not as if i think this is going to happen. I think Sandor's story resolution has something to do with Un!Gregor much more than it has to do with Sansa. But one of my friends thinks Bran's dream about Sansa and the huge knight with darkness in his helmet will come to pass: she will be in danger from Ser Gregor or something of the sort. BUT! I dont see any harm in Sandor rescuing Sansa from Littlefinger, assuming that he is a truly reformed person and "The Hound is dead". Mind you, I do not think this is going to happen (and I think I almost figured out GRRM's logic).

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Also - what do you think about Dany with Drogo? I Am a bit puzzled how quickly the shouts of "he raped her!" changed into the shouts of "I ship these two so much" in the fandom. I adore Jason Momoa's naked torso, but I am still puzzled.

[stoopid-silly.livejournal.com]

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I was thinking the same thing!! I guess people see two hot people together and are forced to ship it!? I never really felt them in the show. I don't think the transition into true love ♥♥♥ worked at all. Why did Dany fall in love with him again? Because he stopped raping her every night?? How romantic. I thought it was a bit better in the books, just because I was surprised that Drogo waited for the "yes" and that made me like them a bit more. But not that much. I wish they had just been like, a functional power couple. They didn't need to be madly in love. Well I guess her being in love, makes her killing him sadder, but it should have been developed waaay better.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

It disturbed me equally as strongly in the book, actually more because there Dany is described as a wisp of 14-year old (and in the show - I know she is supposed to be 15, but my eyes tell me that she is NOT). Mostly, I was also confused because how come: the first night was consensual (but as a true logic freak, I must point out that we didn't get the deatils of the actual act) and after that Drogo started raping her every night? I don't like when the logic doesn't add up. And then - yep, after that we get a romantic book of the 80s where a woman falls in love with her rapist because she managed to stop him from raping her and learned to appreciate his savageness. This does not compute again.

[dekyria.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. Those days - ok. Nowadays, only if they're of age. And then 10 years would be max I think.

I like ships like Dany/Jorah and Sansa/Sandor, but it isn't reality so I think it's ok.

My bf and I started dating when I was 16 and he was 22 (16 is legal here) and some people acted funny about it but I just didn't care, still don't. We've had no problems with our age difference. Now I'm 22 and he's almost 28.. and yeah it will be weird when he's 30 and I'm only 24, maybe but TBH it really doesn't matter to me and I like older men. lol. My parents have a 6 year age difference too BTW, quite funny.

ps. I can't stop obsessing about GoT too.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I think 6 years is perfectly fine even in our day and age, though!! I know a couple who have 20 years difference that married when she was 18, and you know - she is almost 40 now and he is 60 and no-one who doesn't know believes that the difference is so big. So, I think you must look at the individual case.

[ancarett]

I know that when I dug into history, I found that for many times and social ranks, age at marriage was even higher than it is today (i.e. mid-twenties for English men and women of the working class up through the eighteenth century, at least). There was also very little age difference in the couple and the woman might very well be pregnant when they got married.

But elites often skew that age difference. Renaissance Italy, of course, did this to great extremes even among the merchant class where girls of sixteen were seen as suspiciously old for marriage and the fourteen year old girl might well be married to a man who was 35 or 40. If he was on his second or third marriage, that only broadened the gap for the couples!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Thank you so so much for the info! I don't know any real broad statistical information, the only trufacts I know is my gran's story - she was from a farming village and she seemed to talk about her marriage as if it was normal, it was me who was all @OH, no! You were married at 13!!!!!!!" and she will be "this is what everyone did".

It is very very interesting what you say about the elites. 14 yars old marrying 35 - this does seem very very unequal. You know, there is a Russian painting The Unequal marriage ( http://www.russianartgallery.org/famous/wedding.htm - it makes me so sad to see this!).

[ancarett]

Well, my knowledge of age of marriage comes mostly from English, French and Italian resources. I've read a very little bit for Germany, nothing for Spain, Poland or anything east, etc.

With the English farmers and labourers, one of the limiting factors in marriage was that the man and woman both had to have enough accumulated goods or capital to finance their share of the new household. So a woman could be 25 or 26 and just only have had enough wealth to marry (in most English communities, she'd be expected to provide all the interior household goods excepting for any business materials he'd supply; the new husband had to have a job or other income and provide the actual residence).

In other cultures where multiple families shared a residence or new residences could be more easily added to a community, that need to finance a new home wouldn't be such a limiting factor. That's why it's so neat to see this research in parish registers and community archives.

As for the painting, oh yes! You don't get a sense that she's embracing this marriage out of a sense that she's getting anything out of it whereas the old guy? Well, ugh! He's definitely got his eyes on things!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

This is all again so awesome. Thank you so much for providing all this info!!!

In other cultures where multiple families shared a residence or new residences could be more easily added to a community, that need to finance a new home wouldn't be such a limiting factor. That's why it's so neat to see this research in parish registers and community archives.

I think this is what used to happen in Russian farmer households - girls would leave home and go and live in the household of their husbands. There was a whole set of sad songs that were used at the weddings, when the girl's family was saying good bye to her and she was getting ready to live in a totatly new household, with people who weren't necesserily nice to her. Basically, I think the young wifes of sons used to do the majority of the work (and bear children).

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

I'm not bothered by age differences in historical / historical fantasy fiction, either. It was a different world, and the whole concept of childhood as we know it today is quite recent and a product of rising incomes. So it would totally skeeve me out to see a 15-year-old married to a 35-year-old now, but historical fiction is another animal entirely.

<< I often think why the marriageable age (especially for girls) was quite often a lot lower in the "olden days", and I think this mostly had do with the short life span and high death rate in babies. >>

Exactly. They needed to maximize her child-bearing years.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, I am the same. And really, I amnit that worried even in our day and age. If a person has reached 18 years, they are free to do what they want.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

I should stop obsessing so much over Game of Thrones, shouldn't I?

oh goodness no! how would we ever have these lovely chats if you did?

the age of marriage in this time period doesn't bother me. i believe you've all stated the big reason why this happened: more time to bear more children. but to touch on a point ancarett made, it was usually the noble women who married so young not the low born. i believe that's because their families usually wanted to seal alliances sooner rather than later.

dany/drogo didn't seem too extreme to me. dany/jorah don't either. i've heard all the fuss about the wedding night. hbo's version is more brutal but the book isn't very flattering either when it describes the follow up couplings for the newlyweds. i see that as i see the marrying age issue: a sign of the times. women weren't viewed in the same way they are now and had no rights. their husbands were more concerned about their heirs than their wives.

i also think that given the period, a young noble woman had few "younger" options. there was so much war, killing, disease and death keeping a knight or lord busy that by the time he was ready to settle down, he was likely in his late 20s or older. so there would just naturally be an age gap.

i think its obvious why hbo aged the children up. besides the marriages, i think its hard for modern day veiwers to believe a 14 year old could win tourneys or lead wars.

that said, what i found "unjust" is grrm's pitting these young, inexperienced children against seasoned, experienced adults. they either evoked enormous pity from me (sansa on her knees at court saying she won't hatch anything while everyone around her was hatching something) or very hard to swallow (arya tricking jaquen h. at harrenhal). just seems so unmatched.

i heard a rumor that all the "children" were supposed to age between the books but that grrm changed his mind later.

please keep obsessing :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

My gran was a farmer, but they used to live as big extended family, this is why they also married young.


And yes, the other reason was that the young males were probably engaged in some war or something like this.

that said, what i found "unjust" is grrm's pitting these young, inexperienced children against seasoned, experienced adults. they either evoked enormous pity from me

yes, this is the main problem with the beginning of Sansa/Sandor relationship, for example, it is just unbalanced power-wise. But I still love it because I don't think their relationship is meant to be consummated at that point.

[rivertempest.livejournal.com]

Personally, I love a wider age difference. My husband is 15 years older than me, my grandmother and granfather were 20 years apart - and they married when she was 16. I agree, the olden days were much harsher, you almost had to marry them off young because the life expectancy wasn't very high. Of course, it's vastly different nowadays, but I do like the idea of Dany and Jorah, Sansa and Sandor, etc. I find it hard to tolerate a male in the lead female's age bracket.

Don't you dare stop obsessing over GOT - you are my addictive fix on any given day. ;)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. I don't have any problem with age difference in RL too, as long as the parties reached marriageable age.

I like both Jorah/Dany and Sansa/Sandor, and I also don't mind when the male is younger. I guess I am such a softie for anything doomed and not meant to be.

[tekalynn.livejournal.com]

What can I say? I write Snape/Harry. I have no problem with fictional cross-generational relationships.

As for RL cross-gen, if both parties are fully consenting and agree, then God bless 'em. It's their business, not mine.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Absolutely!!!!!!!!!

[failte-aoife.livejournal.com]

I have nothing to add. Actually I recently read a book, also set in medieval-fantasy setting where the main characters where greatly bothered by having to marry early and that bothered me a lot...especially cause there were perfectly good reasons for trying to get children to marry and have children as early as possible (the people were frequently attacked by demons who sometimes managed to kill over 20 people in one attack, which is a heavy blow for small village communities). The adults even tried these arguments (admittedly they probably expressed themselves rather unfortunate - because adults were all stupid in these books) but none of the children tried to understand this and just went 'OMG! you are so mean to me!!!' and I went 'ARGH'.

Sorry...that was probably a bit off-tangent...and long considering I just wanted to say 'I agree with you' XD

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, no. this was actually such an interesting example. I am going to remember it - do you rememebr what is the book's title?

[failte-aoife.livejournal.com]

It's Peter Brett's The Painted Man (first in a Trilogy) and I have more issues with this book than just the portraial of marriages (like, generally the portraial of women who can only be either sluts or totally pure and innocent and the fact that the heroes all come from a vaguely Western-European-ish society, why the bad guys are clearly based on the Arab/Muslim world)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much! It seems that the book has some controversial themes!

[bond-girl.livejournal.com]

I love fictional romances with big age difference! It's no particular kink but I guess I usually love many pairings that are ~different.

In real life, when I was 20, I dated someone who was 34. I didn't think the age difference was a big deal. It was great for me, like taking a crash course in life experience - things that wouldn't have been possible if I were dating someone my age. Then he moved away for tax reasons. If honestly, none of us were probably ~madly in love with each other but we had a great time. It was an exchange, in a good sense of this word. What I'm saying, it doesn't have to be gross if both people understand what they're doing and why :)

I like my fiction to push the envelope much further than my real life though, so I enjoy SanSan so very much.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I love fictional romances with big age difference! It's no particular kink but I guess I usually love many pairings that are ~different.

I think the same is true for me. One of my friends always gos for straightforward romances, but me? I never seem to that interested in those. i always like things different and DOOMED, and more doomed, the better.

And yes to Sansa/Sandor - whatever their future is, this is one of my most beloved pairings in ASOIF.

[dangermousie.livejournal.com]

I seem to be in the minority on this thread but they give me the creeps. In the modern world, there is something wrong with a 45 yr old who finds 20 yr olds compatible the most. Obviously, there can be exceptions, but generally that's my take. Plus, purely pragmatically, that's not a good future. Your spouse will be old and sick when you are in prime of life. (Obviously, you can marry someone your own age who gets hit by a truck three days later, but we are talking laws of averages).

In historical times, ehhh, it used to be common, at least for the upper classes (much less so for working people - I read a whole book that partially dealt with this in medieval Florentine society). I wouldn't be weirded out/think it's wrong/improbable seeing it in that context but I wouldn't ship it either. I bring my modern morals with me - ancient Egyptian or Incan royalty thought it was fine to marry siblings, and I am not going to condemn them but I'd find it hard to ship them.

Anything more than 15 yrs is off for me, and if one of the partners is really young, it better be less than ten.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes, I rememebr you mentioning this before!

You see, my position is probably somethingbased on my own experience. My friends that have the biggest age difference (25, I thin) are one of the best couples I know (although the guy is really NOT typical 60-year old) . They met when she was 17 and married at 18.

I just usually get into the story and go with it, plus, I like all sorts of different pairings.

[ogwriter.livejournal.com]

I love this pairing and totally ship it! Gahh, are there any LJ comms for this ship? Must.. discuss..

I'm totally with you on your opinions, there's nothing wrong with this relationship within the context of the canon. The historical reality is that women turned age 13, and their father's wanted someone else to house and feed them. They married them off, usually to a man around the father's age, anyway. Societally, older men were far more established in as far as their houses, wealth, and reputation-- Fathers did not marry their daughters to common, 15 year old boys (nonetheless what modern society would deem an egalitarian relationship).

I think in the historical context, the whole idea of love growing out of a protective relationship between Jorah/Dany is not only romantic, but probably commonplace.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

YAY! There is a comm for Dany and Jorah - http://danyjorah.livejournal.com/profile

I think in the historical context, the whole idea of love growing out of a protective relationship between Jorah/Dany is not only romantic, but probably commonplace.

Yes, I think you are right and this is a good point. OTH, something like Dany/Drogo is still a bit puzzling.