alexandral (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
alexandral) wrote2011-12-19 02:13 pm
alexandral) wrote2011-12-19 02:13 pm
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Mockingjay: Please tell me this is going to get better.
I am through about 40% of "Mockingjay", and dear friends list, I am getting seriously annoyed. Katniss is undergoing what is probably the worst ever character development in the history of fiction.
Where is Katniss that was a strong survivor? Where? When was she replaced by this whiny clueless mess:
- "No-one is telling me anything! My life is a woooooooooe!" Me: no-one is telling her anything because she is naïve beyond any belief (to the point where her naivety has become brain-deficiency) and throws tantrums all the time?
- "EVERYONE IS EVIL! Capitol is EVIL! Rebels ARE EVIL! Everyone is evil! Even Haymitch! How dares he to try to keep me alive! Even cats are evil!". Me: I am eye-rolling so hard my eyes are in danger.
- "Everyone died because of Meeeeeeeeee! I should have died! Died!" . Me: Katniss, get a grip on yourself. Please get a grip.
- "Oh no! Look at poor me suffering so much when watching Peeta tortured on TV! I passed out! And I raged! " Me: Peeta is tortured. PEETA. How come it is all about YOU?
Leaving my "I am so annoyed at this" feelings aside and trying to be rational: the character development of Katniss is that of Sansa Stark (A Song of Ice and Fire) in reverse. Sansa starts as young and terribly naïve and grows into a survivor. Katniss starts as a survivor and disintegrates into a puddle of jelly with no brains.
Please tell me this is going to get better. As it stands now, I think Katniss is as good a role model to young girls as Bella (Twilight), just in a different way (no brains, tantrums, "me me me" attitude)! I am so horrified that this is supposed to be "a feminist book for young adults".
PS: Shall I keep listening? There are 6.5 more hours of this! Or shall I give up, find the spoilers, and move on to some better books?
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1) that Katniss' "front" doesn't feel real for me (at all - We already discussed the worldbuilding). It is some kind of make-up made-believe situation, which is for me, sorry - NOT REAL FRONT. To compare with ASOIAF: there I feel the danger and the stress and the horror. In Hunger Games, forgive me, but the descriptions of beautiful dresses Katniss had to wear and gorgeous food she had to eat are described much more vividly than her "Horrors". So for me? Not REAL FRONT. :D
2) Everyone around her came from the same situation, so they also are having PSTD. Why is no-one else having tantrums and a bad case of cluelessness?
3) PTSD doesn't explain as to why Katniss is so clueless/oblivious/blind. As the person below commented "it's always delicate when the only narrator is a bit blind and unaware of what goes on around her (and you, the reader, are perfectly aware of how oblivious she can be, which is intensely irritating)"
4) PSTD doesn't explain why she is so selfish. We might be of different opinion but for me selfishness = weakness. If I do dislike something realy strongly it is selfishness.
Plus, don't misunderstand my meaning. I don't dislike Katniss. She is just a fictional charcter. I dislike the author who picked one female charcter out of them all and turned her into this jelly-like mess when all the male characters seem to be coping with their dose of horror just fine (in the same circumstances)? I haven't read so far, but I bet Peeta will be un-brainwashed pretty quickly and will turn into the same hero-like perfect Peeta. I BET ON IT.
This is my main problem with the trilogy - I have seen it hailed as "feminist fiction", where in reality it is not. It is the same old story with teenage stereotypes : "teenage girls are weak, they throw tantrums, they have no brains, they are all about themselves etc. etc." . STEREOTYPES.
PS: I have to say "I am sorry" (just in case) because I feel really quite angry about Katniss' charcter development in this trilogy. I might say/do things that are not entirely rational, and this very rarely happens to me. But I feel real anger towards Collins: Katniss had such a great potential, and turning her into a teenage stereotype si baaaaaaaaaad! :D
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2) No they didn't. The only other person who has been through the same thing is Finnick. OH AND HE IS ALSO DEALING WITH PTSD. Finnick is having trouble coping too, just like Katniss. She's not just whining about unimportant things. She's actually seriously not well. She's hiding in closets not because she's trying to shirk responsibilities but because she's not able to cope.
3) I'm not 100% sure what you're specifically referring to her, but I think that part of this is the Harry Potter Problem.
4) I REALLY don't get what you mean when you call her selfish. Katniss is struggling with her own demons right now and she should be allowed to.
And I don't think it's so much that Collins chose a female character out of all of them and turned her into a jelly-like mess because a) UM FINNICK? (who is actually the only character who has had an experience analogous to Katniss) and b) we're only really seeing Katniss's experiences because she's the main character and is the narrator of the story so obviously she is going to be the only character whose head we're in.
I think reading this article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yashar-hedayat/a-message-to-women-from-a_1_b_958859.html?ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false) might explain why I think Katniss is an important feminist character. Katniss's feelings and experiences are not invalidated by the text itself or by those around her. Katniss is allowed to be affected by the horrors she's gone through and her feelings are not dismissed.
I just really don't see how Katniss is a teenaged stereotype in any sense of the word.
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3) What is HArry Potter Problem?
4) Always thinking about herself, even in situation when she is watching Peeta being tortured she thinks exactly "MYYYYYYY heart is breaking", not "Poor Peeta". .. I ask you - WHAT DEMONS???? Everyone was protecting her in the second games and she doesn't even say "thank you" to Haymitch, Finick, Joanna, etc.
I just really don't see how Katniss is a teenaged stereotype in any sense of the word.
In the worst possible sense:
1)"Teenage princess" stereotype: tantrums, etc. I can't believe it for a minute that all the girls are prone to tantrums and are only interested in dresses!
2) let me give you an example. I go to my daughter's school the other day and I look at the math display and I see a perl of "all the numbers are gone.. to boys school" (or something like this) . I am sick and tired of people implying that females are somehow inherently stupider than males. Sick and Tired (sorry, I am still on the high horse). So when everyone around Katniss (Peeta, Gale) seem to easy understand wheat is going on and she seems to be so clueless - stereotype.
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3) HP is told from a limited POV (Harry's POV) and sometimes it's annoying because the reader has clearly figured something out, but the author needs the POV character to remain oblivious to it in order to further the plot or keep the tension or whatever.
4) Her heart is breaking because of her feelings for Peeta. I don't see how that is selfish. Katniss HAS been through a lot. She had the weight of the world on her shoulders. She's been used as a pawn by the Capitol in the first book. Then again in the 2nd book (but with the added bonus of being used by a pawn again by Haymitch and co as they use her but don't keep her in the loop), and now is being used by the rebels. Added to this is fighting for her life in the Games.
Yeah, I think you are reading the text completely wrong in the last two points you make. That isn't what is going on. What examples can you specifically think of in the text where Katniss is clueless? I can't think of any.
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3) Oh yes, I see what you mean. But in HG the annoying part is that everyone (Gale, Peeta) seem to be able to figure things out, but not Katniss (hence - gender stereotypes). To tell you the truth, I think one non-stereotyped female in the series is Katniss' sister. But I am sure Prim is going to die (to make Katniss suffer), and most likely Gale will be involved. This is just exactly the type of story Collins will go for, something so stereotypical.
4) Well, you see, when someone in the middle of someone else's torture thinks about herself and HER pain only - For me this is selfish! And all that "Blah blah blah, I am used by rebels" stuff is even more annoying because, of course, they are using her because she is so naive and will definitely throw a tantrum if she is told the truth!
No, you are reading it wrong. :D Clueless? For example, everyone in the rebel camp seem to know what is going on? Apart from Katniss? Or simple things like her favourite phrase "OH WHY HE IS DOING THIS?" about Peeta (Haymitch, Finick,Joanna, etc. etc.) ? Where it is pretty obvious to everyone else (Haymitch, Peeta, etc.) the person in question is doing this?
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And of course, you are entitled to yours too! but I object to the idea that your or mine opinions can be somehow more valid.. I thought I have to say this.. :D
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Is Katniss interested in dresses, though? I thought the dresses/clothing she wore served a purpose and somewhat determined her role in the games. During the pre-Games events, Katniss's clothes—Peeta's, too—served to establish her presence within the games and gather the attention of the viewers. When Katniss interviewed with Caesar Flickman, her moments of "Look at my pretty dress. *twirls*" were due to Cinna's coaching. Then, after Katniss and Peeta won the first Games, Cinna had Katniss wear a demure dress in her interview to portray her as a young schoolgirl in love, instead of a young woman who defied the Gamemakers.
The same can be said for the second Games, where Katniss goes on about her pretty wedding dress. Again, that act was due to Cinna's coaching and played upon the audience's emotional investment in the tributes. She's not the only one who did that, either. Each tribute, in his/her interview, appealed to the audience's emotions—can't Snow do something about the games, since you all love us so much?, etc. Katniss's approach was through her dress, because the Capital citizens were all about fashion, but she (through Cinna) turned the wedding dress into a defiant symbol of rebellion.
In Mockingjay, the emphasis on clothes is only to show how functional Cinna made them so she could play her role in the rebellion. Additionally, in the books (I can't remember which one. Catching Fire, I think.), Katniss says she's thankful her "talent" as a tribute is dressmaking, because it's something Cinna could do on her behalf. That doesn't sound like she's interested in dresses to me. Just the opposite, in fact.
I don't think Katniss is stereotypically stupid, either. I agree that Katniss's lack of emotional insight can be annoying at times, but she's a girl who spent her life ensuring her family's survival, and she didn't have a lot of time to analyze her feelings or others' motives. As for her distrusting Finnick/Johanna/the other tributes in CF, I don't blame her. The truth is that she had, again, one goal: Peeta's survival. She was single-minded in her approach, and trying to accomplish her goal in the arena didn't allow for much introspection, especially when you consider the point of the Games is for the tributes to murder one another. As she said, whatever moment of solidarity the tributes had on the pre-Games interview show disappeared the moment the buzzer sounded.
Post Games, you have to admit Haymitch did use her, and without her knowledge. That has to bring up some trust issues. And nobody would let her rest. I know you don't think Katniss suffered more than anyone else; it doesn't matter if she had it better or worse than others, because her pain was still valid. She did suffer from being in the Hunger Games twice, and that's not something I'd expect her to analyze in a, "Look. Peeta/Haymitch/Finnick/etc. were in the Games and they survived, too. I guess I shouldn't complain" way.
I agree with
I didn't mean to sound like I'm attacking anyone or invalidating a different opinion. I just wanted to add my perspective, because I love Katniss and think she's definitely one of the stronger women I've read in fiction lately.
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I thought Katniss was "not really stupid" at first, but in Mockinjay I was practically rolling my eyes.
Post Games, you have to admit Haymitch did use her, and without her knowledge. That has to bring up some trust issues.
BUT HE SAVED HER LIFE (and not just for the rebel cause). Well, this is what I mean about "clueless" - how would she not see that the plan would have never worked if she knew! Because, let's face it, she is so naive there was no chance for her to be able to hide anything (or not to start throwing tantrums).
But in seriousness, this series is such a terrible case of broken expectations for me that I honestly am all just "grgrgrgrgrgrgrgr" and other incoherent stuff. It started so well and disintegrated into such a mess! And I am not even talking about problems with worldbulding and narrative. Or with the fact that Collins "borrowed" so much from various sources. I am just raging about the "murder" of Katniss' character in this post.
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You see, this is the PROBLEM. If she is one of the strongest, what about the others? When even the strongest woman is still weaker than a man (Peeta, for example)?
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Lots of fans of "PTSD katniss" talk about how tired they are of she-roes. Are there really that many? And wasn't she more of a she-ro at 14 than she is now? (shakes head) Ok, she is bound to feel trauma from being in the arena twice. But I agree with you alexandral, others aren't hiding in closets. Sure they all have their crosses to bear but they appear to be handling it better. Again, the girl of the story isn't managing as well.
Her actions in district 13 makes me question how she did so much in the first books. I do believe we all have our breaking points and I guess it was all just too much for katniss. Even if all the others managed to pull through. That's the part that pisses me off about katniss. She's the only one hiding in the closet.
I also agree she's been horribly manipulated by the capital but goodness hasn't everyone who entered the arena or had a member of their family enter it? She started off so amazing and now she's so broken. So yes Collins, we get it. Life sucks.
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Also re: she-ros. I hate the term. I have always worked in a male-oriented field myself and I want more ladies doing more "male-oriented" stuff.
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"Katniss's feelings and experiences are not invalidated by the text itself or by those around her. Katniss is allowed to be affected by the horrors she's gone through and her feelings are not dismissed."
This is impossible. We live in society, so everyone's feelings are affected by those around us. People whose feelings aren't affected/judged/merited by other people - aren't they called sociopaths? Are you saying Katniss is a sociopath? Surely this is a mistake!
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Sorry to be jumping into a heated discussion but I want to join too!
1) I think this issue goes back to your dislike of HG world building so for you the Arena battling wasn't enough of a traumatic experience, but for me, it was pretty hellish. I mean to be thrown together in this confined spaced with people constantly trying to murder you, and you're constantly debating whether you should become a murderer to save yourself is as hellish as I can imagine. Personally, if I was her, I probably just jump off a cliff and be done with it because I certainly can't take that kind of pressure.
2) I feel a tad offended by this point because it's almost like you're victim blaming. Everyone have a different way to cope and different time to heal so to say " HOW DARE YOU NOT COPING WITH THIS WHEN EVERYONE ELSE IS A-OK!?" is just unsympathetic.And I think it was quite brave of Collins to lead Katniss towards this path of character development. While Katniss is extremely capable and badass, she's still human and thus she reacted probably like how most humans would react to such extreme situations. She broke down.
3) I think a main flaw with Katniss is that she doesn't put her trusts in many which I think is a result of the crappy world she lives in. So for Haymitch to use her as a pawn makes that teetering trust she had in him to be shaky once again. Furthermore, she's rarely given a chance to act on her own agency. She's continuously being thrown in situations not of her own makings. Plus she's angry, deeply angry that she was saved at the expense of Peeta. The girl was unhinged enough that she was trying to find Peeta to kill him and spare him the pain at the end of book 2. So for her to distrust the whole establishment and not paying particular attention to the finer details of the whole plan is understandable to me. Plus, another character trait for Katniss is that while smart and resourceful, she's not cunning. She's not particularly adept at maneuvering people for her own gains. Look at her attempts with Peeta which was pretty awkward and nonexistent. If Peeta wasn't in love with her, her whole attempt would pretty much kaput from the get go.
4) I don't really see how Katniss is selfish. Granted my memory of the book is hazy now so I can't recall words for words her reaction to Peeta's torture. Even if let's say her reaction was "my heart is breaking", what's so bad about that? What's so bad about hurting on someone's behalf so badly that you feel as if your heart is breaking? That to me doesn't read selfishness.
Despite my lengthy contradictions with your points, I totally understand that every book is up for interpretation which is what make reading so cool =D I just want to put in my two cents (or more like dollars b/c man, long post!) because you said that Katniss is as bad as Bella which make me very sad on Katniss' behalf. And I'm not even a fan of this series! But Bella would so die right off in the arena, man! We know this. hur
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1) Yes, it does. As I mentioned in some other comments, In A Song of Ice and Fire (for example) I feel the danger and the horror. In HG? No , I don't.
2) I honestly can't see how I can offend you personally - we are discussing fictional characters here, and what I am stating is my opinion (largely influenced by 1)).
But you might be missing my point here. I have nothing against Katniss herself (for the record, neither I have anything against Bella). As far as I am concerned, all girls are good, ALL! What I am objecting to is that in these books, as in many books before them, it is THE GIRL who is overemotional and can't deal and etc. etc. THE BOYS seem to deal perfectly fine! EVEN FINICK! He has recovered after the clinical death (I am further down in the book now) Even Peeta! But Katniss is still all over the place. I want THE GIRL to be able to deal for once!
So again, I don't understand how can I offend YOU here. :(
3) Honestly, we'll have to agree to disagree here. The person that pays no attention to "finer details" as well as "the whole plan" is a low-intelligence person in my book.
4) I tell you what is wrong. :D It is like when I hurt my leg badly and my sister was rolling in hysterics because SHE felt so bad about it. Her hysterics didn't help me in any way, and I don't think Katniss' hysterics can help Peeta.
And YAY! I am the same - I don't at all imply that your points are invalid, they are just right for .. you.
Re: Bella. I am not sure how Katniss survived in the arena now. :(