Mockingjay: Please tell me this is going to get better.

[alexandral]

I am through about 40% of "Mockingjay", and dear friends list, I am getting seriously annoyed. Katniss is undergoing what is probably the worst ever character development in the history of fiction.

Where is Katniss that was a strong survivor? Where? When was she replaced by this whiny clueless mess:

- "No-one is telling me anything! My life is a woooooooooe!" Me: no-one is telling her anything because she is naïve beyond any belief (to the point where her naivety has become brain-deficiency) and throws tantrums all the time?

- "EVERYONE IS EVIL! Capitol is EVIL! Rebels ARE EVIL! Everyone is evil! Even Haymitch! How dares he to try to keep me alive! Even cats are evil!". Me: I am eye-rolling so hard my eyes are in danger.

- "Everyone died because of Meeeeeeeeee! I should have died! Died!" . Me: Katniss, get a grip on yourself. Please get a grip.

- "Oh no! Look at poor me suffering so much when watching Peeta tortured on TV! I passed out! And I raged! " Me: Peeta is tortured. PEETA. How come it is all about YOU?

Leaving my "I am so annoyed at this" feelings aside and trying to be rational: the character development of Katniss is that of Sansa Stark (A Song of Ice and Fire) in reverse. Sansa starts as young and terribly naïve and grows into a survivor. Katniss starts as a survivor and disintegrates into a puddle of jelly with no brains.

Please tell me this is going to get better. As it stands now, I think Katniss is as good a role model to young girls as Bella (Twilight), just in a different way (no brains, tantrums, "me me me" attitude)! I am so horrified that this is supposed to be "a feminist book for young adults".

PS: Shall I keep listening? There are 6.5 more hours of this! Or shall I give up, find the spoilers, and move on to some better books?

Comments

[rachel2205.livejournal.com]

Can you lj-cut your spoilers, my dear? I haven't read this one yet!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

My sincere apologies! I am really sorry! I will!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Done! Please let me know if this is fine or if you prefer everything to be under the cut.

[lydzi.livejournal.com]

Oh oh you hit those parts.

I think Katniss just has a meltdown since her return from the second Hunger Games. While she could manage at the beginning, she can't anymore. I know she might be annoying on some point but in the end she is just a teenager trying to manage and asking her to be a role-model, a symbol for an entire revolution might be too much. Sansa isn't a good paralell in this case. Take more Robb. Because he was the one to be asked to fulfill a new place. To enbody a huge symbol: King of the North, rebel against King's Landing. And in the end, it's too much for him too somehow. He makes a bad decision out of what might be considered as an egoist choice.

I don't really had trouble with Katniss because I could see where it was coming from. She always has been quite egoist. The only person she finally truly cares for is not even her mother but her sister Prim. Peeta is second. And then Gale. This is her direct world. Rest is not relevant and yet she has to become something she is not in order for everyone to just be free. It's gigantic. It's a very heavy responsability even more when it's unwanted. In the end, she never truly chooses anything. But she tries. She keeps telling everyone she is not fited for the role and as a matter of fact: she isn't. It's a truth everyone also in direct contact with her aknowledges.
And I do like that thematic about what is real, what isn't, and what appears. What the people wants to see is a girl in fire when really, all is left is a girl in ashes.

Yes you need to finish it ^^. Only because my only real complain about the plot is coming and I want to discuss it with you XD.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, I meant she is Sansa in reverse, not Sansa proper. :D I like your comparison with Robb , it is quite fitting! Love it actually. but I don't like Robb (well, I don't hate him but he is such a silly boy).

I don't mind her not wanting to be some silly banner for revolution. But what I DO mind is her total "me me me" attitude, and her not noticing anyone around her. Things like her whining : "Haymitch, I hate him. Why did Haymitch rescue meeeeeeeeee? Why didn't he tell me the plans?" . I mean - SHOW A BIT OF GRATITUDE! You are alive and Peeta is alive, and you could have been dead!

It is clear that no-one is telling her any plans because she has no brains to understand? And everyone is manipulating her because she is so easy to manipulate?

Oh, and the lack of brains. It is subjective dislike, but I do dislike the "brainless girl" stereotype. i hate it much more than I hate "damsel in distress" stereotype. People, there is no evidence that girls are less brainy than boys. NO EVIDENCE AT ALL.

GRGRGRGRGR. I am so angry lydzi, I am not ever fair, I know, but at the same time - this is not a feminist book, not by a long shot, not even when I calm down. I feel as if I was looking forward to a nice chocolate in a nice wrapping and when I unwrapped it.. it was something else. I am glad now that some actress I don't particular like is playing Katniss.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

Lmao. Does it get better? I can only say what i thought but i will hold off on that for now. But please finish! I am looking forward to having a great discussion with you about this. In fact, I replied to your last comment about catching fire. I really love hearing your pov :)

I will say that I had exactly the same reaction as you to the parts you've mentioned. I kept wishing for the old catnip.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I am so glad it is not me! ** bonds ** I really don't have any patience for tantrums that fit 5-year old in 16-year old girls. And more importantly - I don't want to hear that this is just because she is a teenage girl. NO. NOT ALL TEENAGE GIRLS ARE LIKE THAT. This , in fact, is one of terrible stereotypes about teenage girls that I don't like.


YAY! I am writing a long response to your wonderful comment, but I haven't had time to finish it properly. And I want to write a good response!)

PS: I am just dramatic. I will get through. :D

[lydzi.livejournal.com]

Katniss has huge flaws that's very true ^^. She's very moody and it shows a lot more now. Somehow Peeta had a very good influence on her in this part. Even if she doesn't aknowledge or say it, she replicates a tiny bit her behaviour/decisions on his. That's why what comes has such impact (you must not be very far from it now).

Oh Katniss was never bright to begin with. She's ressourceful but intelligence actually goes to Prim and, with some extension to Gale (even if he is so abrasive and violent you don't see it right away).

It's important to also take in account that everything we see is through Katniss's eyes. She's not very tender with herself. If she is also so violent towards Haymitch it's also because he is a lot like her. And that's probably why Peeta is also so idealized ( I've seen people call him boring and too perfect when really it's only because we see him through her filter) and Prim appears like an angel.
But I can understand your frustration with those books. When I read them I was actually being negative at first because of the all comparison with Battle Royale (doesn't help that I read the book Battle Royale and it's fantastic) but then, I really fancy the overall thematic of those books. Sometimes it's easy in the plot (too easy) but the all direction of the thematics isn't. But since you have been approaching the books with words attached to them, the disappointment... well... it's comprehensive ^^'.

I don't think you will like the ending now :/.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, don't remind me about Battle Royale! :D I thought that the first book of HG was way WAY better , both in the character development and in the world building sense, and now I suspect that the credit here should go to "Battle Royale" and other books Collins took the ideas from. Both second and third books of HG (the books where Collins moves away from the ideas she has taken from other books and tries to write her own stuff) are so so much weaker than the first.

yes, sometimes it is really "the worst" when you have big expectations. I have seen "hunger Games" being called a feminist book too many times!

[lydzi.livejournal.com]

Totally agreeing with you on this. Obviously the first book is the best, I think so too.

Well I really like Katniss. But then again you know how weak I can be with a girl and a crossbow :p.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Take me right, i don't dislike Katniss. And crossbows ? OH YES! I have gulped all up-to-date episodes of "The walking Dead" season 2 (thanks goes to you here, with your picture of older Rickon :D) - AND OH MY.

You see, I have "on principle" disagreement with "hunger Games", and when I have one of those, no amount of crossbows can distract me, I am idealistic like that. :D I am really REALLY unhappy that one single young female character that most definitely had a potential to be non-stereotypical, non-cliche and feminist was "spoiled" at the end. For me, the cluelesness (oh, teenage girls are so naive!) and self-engrossment (oh, teenage girls are like this!) and weepiness/tantrums (teenage girls are like this!) are terrible stereotypes that often are applied to teenage girls. And I object here. STRONGLY.

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

I am one of like 2 people who love Mockingjay.

And honestly, it's kind of offensive that you're calling her whiny. She's dealing with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. She's not upset because her boyfriend didn't ask her to a dance. She's mentally shutting down and unable to deal with the world around her because she's been through hell. Do you find soldiers coming back from the front who have trouble adjusting to being back in the real world whiny?

I LOVE Mockingjay because as I said earlier, for me the books aren't about the games or the rebellion or the Capitol. Those are just the setting. The books are actually about Katniss and her psychological and emotional journey. This book is all about Katniss and the psychological trauma that she's been through, and how that's affected her.

I love Katniss as a character because she's allowed to be flawed. She is allowed to not be a superhero. She IS strong and as you can see in the first two books she asserts her own agency over the Capitol's machinations (I won't say more about the third book until you finish) and refuses to be someone else's pawn. But at the same time, she's been put through some truly traumatic experiences and she's allowed to act like a real person and have it affect her. And THAT'S why I think she's a good role model for girls. We don't have to act strong all the time even when we don't feel like it. It's ok to be upset. Katniss IS strong, but that doesn't mean she can't be affected by the world around her.

[raffaella.livejournal.com]

I didn't think it got better, sorry. Katniss didn't get less blinkered and that book had serious pacing issues to boot. It was a potentially interesting story, but it's always delicate when the only narrator is a bit blind and unaware of what goes on around her (and you, the reader, are perfectly aware of how oblivious she can be, which is intensely irritating), and that's definitely not something that improved.

[cranberrysheep.livejournal.com]

Completely agree.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

** thinks ** I think the difference Katniss/people coming back from the front for me is:

1) that Katniss' "front" doesn't feel real for me (at all - We already discussed the worldbuilding). It is some kind of make-up made-believe situation, which is for me, sorry - NOT REAL FRONT. To compare with ASOIAF: there I feel the danger and the stress and the horror. In Hunger Games, forgive me, but the descriptions of beautiful dresses Katniss had to wear and gorgeous food she had to eat are described much more vividly than her "Horrors". So for me? Not REAL FRONT. :D

2) Everyone around her came from the same situation, so they also are having PSTD. Why is no-one else having tantrums and a bad case of cluelessness?

3) PTSD doesn't explain as to why Katniss is so clueless/oblivious/blind. As the person below commented "it's always delicate when the only narrator is a bit blind and unaware of what goes on around her (and you, the reader, are perfectly aware of how oblivious she can be, which is intensely irritating)"

4) PSTD doesn't explain why she is so selfish. We might be of different opinion but for me selfishness = weakness. If I do dislike something realy strongly it is selfishness.

Plus, don't misunderstand my meaning. I don't dislike Katniss. She is just a fictional charcter. I dislike the author who picked one female charcter out of them all and turned her into this jelly-like mess when all the male characters seem to be coping with their dose of horror just fine (in the same circumstances)? I haven't read so far, but I bet Peeta will be un-brainwashed pretty quickly and will turn into the same hero-like perfect Peeta. I BET ON IT.

This is my main problem with the trilogy - I have seen it hailed as "feminist fiction", where in reality it is not. It is the same old story with teenage stereotypes : "teenage girls are weak, they throw tantrums, they have no brains, they are all about themselves etc. etc." . STEREOTYPES.

PS: I have to say "I am sorry" (just in case) because I feel really quite angry about Katniss' charcter development in this trilogy. I might say/do things that are not entirely rational, and this very rarely happens to me. But I feel real anger towards Collins: Katniss had such a great potential, and turning her into a teenage stereotype si baaaaaaaaaad! :D

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, I am getting a bit frustrated with the fact that nothing new seem to have been shown to us about the Hunger Games Universe. Seriously, my suspicions re: Hunger Games is a rip-off from "Battle Royale" are rekindled because both book 2 and 3 (the books that deviate from "Battle Royale") are not very good and wouldn't have been able to stand on their own.

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

1) I disagree, but that's not really the point. So whatever.

2) No they didn't. The only other person who has been through the same thing is Finnick. OH AND HE IS ALSO DEALING WITH PTSD. Finnick is having trouble coping too, just like Katniss. She's not just whining about unimportant things. She's actually seriously not well. She's hiding in closets not because she's trying to shirk responsibilities but because she's not able to cope.

3) I'm not 100% sure what you're specifically referring to her, but I think that part of this is the Harry Potter Problem.

4) I REALLY don't get what you mean when you call her selfish. Katniss is struggling with her own demons right now and she should be allowed to.

And I don't think it's so much that Collins chose a female character out of all of them and turned her into a jelly-like mess because a) UM FINNICK? (who is actually the only character who has had an experience analogous to Katniss) and b) we're only really seeing Katniss's experiences because she's the main character and is the narrator of the story so obviously she is going to be the only character whose head we're in.

I think reading this article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yashar-hedayat/a-message-to-women-from-a_1_b_958859.html?ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false) might explain why I think Katniss is an important feminist character. Katniss's feelings and experiences are not invalidated by the text itself or by those around her. Katniss is allowed to be affected by the horrors she's gone through and her feelings are not dismissed.

I just really don't see how Katniss is a teenaged stereotype in any sense of the word.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

2) Finnck's case is not the same as Katniss - wasn't he almost killed by the force field ? So in his case - he has come back from the clinical death? The same goes for Peeta who came back from the clinical death at least once,and was injured, and was brainwashed. I bet we won't hear any complaining from Peeta. And to be honest, I don't rememebr any complaining from Finick either.

3) What is HArry Potter Problem?

4) Always thinking about herself, even in situation when she is watching Peeta being tortured she thinks exactly "MYYYYYYY heart is breaking", not "Poor Peeta". .. I ask you - WHAT DEMONS???? Everyone was protecting her in the second games and she doesn't even say "thank you" to Haymitch, Finick, Joanna, etc.


I just really don't see how Katniss is a teenaged stereotype in any sense of the word.

In the worst possible sense:

1)"Teenage princess" stereotype: tantrums, etc. I can't believe it for a minute that all the girls are prone to tantrums and are only interested in dresses!

2) let me give you an example. I go to my daughter's school the other day and I look at the math display and I see a perl of "all the numbers are gone.. to boys school" (or something like this) . I am sick and tired of people implying that females are somehow inherently stupider than males. Sick and Tired (sorry, I am still on the high horse). So when everyone around Katniss (Peeta, Gale) seem to easy understand wheat is going on and she seems to be so clueless - stereotype.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh,this:

"Katniss's feelings and experiences are not invalidated by the text itself or by those around her. Katniss is allowed to be affected by the horrors she's gone through and her feelings are not dismissed."

This is impossible. We live in society, so everyone's feelings are affected by those around us. People whose feelings aren't affected/judged/merited by other people - aren't they called sociopaths? Are you saying Katniss is a sociopath? Surely this is a mistake!

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I was pretty underwhelmed by both follow up books. Mainly because the worldbuilding did not really work and they always had to return to the arena scenario to get the story working again.

It was a bit of a pity, because I thought there were some great ideas, but it did not really grow into it's shoes.

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

2) I don't recall Finnick suffering clinical death. But Finnick, much like Katniss, has detached from reality. He sits around tying knots in ropes because he can't cope with what he's gone through and the knowledge that Annie has been taken by the Capitol. Katniss hides in closets to escape from her reality. Katniss has been through a lot of horrific experiences in both of the games. I won't comment on any of the Peeta stuff because well, you haven't finished the book, so yeah.

3) HP is told from a limited POV (Harry's POV) and sometimes it's annoying because the reader has clearly figured something out, but the author needs the POV character to remain oblivious to it in order to further the plot or keep the tension or whatever.

4) Her heart is breaking because of her feelings for Peeta. I don't see how that is selfish. Katniss HAS been through a lot. She had the weight of the world on her shoulders. She's been used as a pawn by the Capitol in the first book. Then again in the 2nd book (but with the added bonus of being used by a pawn again by Haymitch and co as they use her but don't keep her in the loop), and now is being used by the rebels. Added to this is fighting for her life in the Games.

Yeah, I think you are reading the text completely wrong in the last two points you make. That isn't what is going on. What examples can you specifically think of in the text where Katniss is clueless? I can't think of any.

[fauxkaren.livejournal.com]

Did you read the article that I linked because that is not what I meant at ALL, and I honestly have no idea where you got that from what I said. My statement will probably make more sense in context of the article.

[sunbrae.livejournal.com]

are only interested in dresses!

Is Katniss interested in dresses, though? I thought the dresses/clothing she wore served a purpose and somewhat determined her role in the games. During the pre-Games events, Katniss's clothes—Peeta's, too—served to establish her presence within the games and gather the attention of the viewers. When Katniss interviewed with Caesar Flickman, her moments of "Look at my pretty dress. *twirls*" were due to Cinna's coaching. Then, after Katniss and Peeta won the first Games, Cinna had Katniss wear a demure dress in her interview to portray her as a young schoolgirl in love, instead of a young woman who defied the Gamemakers.

The same can be said for the second Games, where Katniss goes on about her pretty wedding dress. Again, that act was due to Cinna's coaching and played upon the audience's emotional investment in the tributes. She's not the only one who did that, either. Each tribute, in his/her interview, appealed to the audience's emotions—can't Snow do something about the games, since you all love us so much?, etc. Katniss's approach was through her dress, because the Capital citizens were all about fashion, but she (through Cinna) turned the wedding dress into a defiant symbol of rebellion.

In Mockingjay, the emphasis on clothes is only to show how functional Cinna made them so she could play her role in the rebellion. Additionally, in the books (I can't remember which one. Catching Fire, I think.), Katniss says she's thankful her "talent" as a tribute is dressmaking, because it's something Cinna could do on her behalf. That doesn't sound like she's interested in dresses to me. Just the opposite, in fact.

I don't think Katniss is stereotypically stupid, either. I agree that Katniss's lack of emotional insight can be annoying at times, but she's a girl who spent her life ensuring her family's survival, and she didn't have a lot of time to analyze her feelings or others' motives. As for her distrusting Finnick/Johanna/the other tributes in CF, I don't blame her. The truth is that she had, again, one goal: Peeta's survival. She was single-minded in her approach, and trying to accomplish her goal in the arena didn't allow for much introspection, especially when you consider the point of the Games is for the tributes to murder one another. As she said, whatever moment of solidarity the tributes had on the pre-Games interview show disappeared the moment the buzzer sounded.

Post Games, you have to admit Haymitch did use her, and without her knowledge. That has to bring up some trust issues. And nobody would let her rest. I know you don't think Katniss suffered more than anyone else; it doesn't matter if she had it better or worse than others, because her pain was still valid. She did suffer from being in the Hunger Games twice, and that's not something I'd expect her to analyze in a, "Look. Peeta/Haymitch/Finnick/etc. were in the Games and they survived, too. I guess I shouldn't complain" way.

I agree with fauxkaren: instead of allowing her to emotionally, mentally, and physically heal, she's become yet another pawn in Coin's/Haymitch's/Plutarch's games. I can't fault her for not being able to decide who to trust, what the ultimate goal is, or others' motives.

I didn't mean to sound like I'm attacking anyone or invalidating a different opinion. I just wanted to add my perspective, because I love Katniss and think she's definitely one of the stronger women I've read in fiction lately.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I am too agry/annoyed to read the article, I will not give anything too much justice. I might read it again one day (when I cool down) or I might not because really - it is not as if the book has too much value anyways..

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

2) I have just read it and yes, Finick did suffer clinical death. So - his problems are of other kind (his brain is fried up?) .

3) Oh yes, I see what you mean. But in HG the annoying part is that everyone (Gale, Peeta) seem to be able to figure things out, but not Katniss (hence - gender stereotypes). To tell you the truth, I think one non-stereotyped female in the series is Katniss' sister. But I am sure Prim is going to die (to make Katniss suffer), and most likely Gale will be involved. This is just exactly the type of story Collins will go for, something so stereotypical.

4) Well, you see, when someone in the middle of someone else's torture thinks about herself and HER pain only - For me this is selfish! And all that "Blah blah blah, I am used by rebels" stuff is even more annoying because, of course, they are using her because she is so naive and will definitely throw a tantrum if she is told the truth!

No, you are reading it wrong. :D Clueless? For example, everyone in the rebel camp seem to know what is going on? Apart from Katniss? Or simple things like her favourite phrase "OH WHY HE IS DOING THIS?" about Peeta (Haymitch, Finick,Joanna, etc. etc.) ? Where it is pretty obvious to everyone else (Haymitch, Peeta, etc.) the person in question is doing this?