Game of Thrones: thoughts on fandom and Robb

[alexandral]

The series have completely overtaken my brain.

Game of Thrones fandom has been amazing so far. I only had one little glitch in one of the Game of Thrones communities. I commented that I think that Renly/Loras sex scene is heavily into stereotypes. For some reason I had a person commenting to my comment and implying that I don't like people being out. What was even stranger, this commenter implied that I live in some forgotten part of the world . I had to explain that I ship Renly and Loras and that am glad that the show has their relationship in the open. But that I still find their sex scene using several stereotypes. This is may be my recent extensive obsession with reading m/m romances talking, or most likely my general dislike for any race, nationality, gender, sexuality, etc. stereotypes talking. But me saying that the scene is stereotypical is not in any way anything detrimental to my character, right? And it has nothing to do with the part of the world I live in? May be I am missing something, I am still puzzled.


Anyways, I didn't want to make a fuss in the community, so I commented back and was as light as possible, thinking as I always do that "may be this commenter had a bad experience with someone else". But here, in my own LJ, I can rant away. :D So, just for the record, I do not live in a forgotten part of the world. And anyways, what is wrong with other parts of the world ?



I do see a problem looming ahead, though. And it has to do with Robb.

It all starts with the show creator's decision to make everyone older. As a general rule, take away 10+ years from the age of any character and you'll get the book age. For some characters this makes sense, especially for Sansa and Dany. They both have storylines that would have freaked out the majority of the viewers if their characters were played by someone of the book age. Dany is 13 in the books and Sansa is 11. Imagine a 13-year old actress doing the "wedding night with drogo" scene? There would have been a mighty outcry. So instead we have actresses that are 22 and 15 which makes sense.

Then we have Robb. I am still a little puzzled by the huge popularity of Robb. I find the actor to be semi-attractive and good at acting (but I am yet to see an actor that is not good at acting in this show). He also has a heroic part to play in the season 1, "let's fight for the rights of the North" part, which I, as a person from the North, am really partial to. We do have a clear North/South divide here in the UK , you see :D. But I am a bit puzzled as to why he seems to be turning into such a pin-up. He is not that attractive, surely, not in "OMPH! he is so HOT!" way? But at the same time I personally like him, so why not?


the Problem

************ Spoilers *******************************





The problem I have is with Robb's future storyline. I have always been very very angry with Robb, for forgetting the promise he made to marry one of the Frey daughters, for getting his manhood out of his pants and sleeping with Jayne Westerling (and then marrying her because he had to). This led to some major problems for him, his mother, and his people. But you see, in the book I always thought this was forgivable because he was so young ( Robb is 14 years of age in the books ). He could not possibly see the consequences of his actions.

But! In the show we have a man of 30 who seems to have a clear vision that "this war is not over", who seems to think of his people first of all and who seems to have some strategic thinking. It will be really hard for me to see a man like that to forget his word, his duty, his honour and his men and sleep with someone.





********* End of spoilers ******************



What do you think?

Comments

[sunnytyler001.livejournal.com]

Hum... That's a good question. The HBO did make some changes- not only about the ages, but also, for exemple to Dany & Drogo's wedding night, Littlefinger stealing the Hound's lines, ...
Maybe they'll change Robb's motivations too... :S We'll see...

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Do not remind me about the change in the Hound scene. I am still bitter. The show has won me over with other good things, but I still have not forgotten. Even more so: since my fisrt reaction several weeks ago ("Oh, horror, why did they do that?") I have found some info how Martin really liked Rory reading that part in auditions. We were robbed!!!!!!!!

Dany/Drogo - I was happy with that, because in the books although the first night was consensual, after that there is a passage where Drogo is sort of raping Dany every night for several weeks. I was confused when I read the books (first night = consensual, the nights after that = rape). And even more - we do not get much info of the first night, nothing after "Drogo pulled her clothes off".

With Robb, because the Jayne part is behind the scenes, I always wanted more explanation there.

Spoilers in the comment beware!

[lydzi.livejournal.com]

I love Robb a LOT so I feel like I can answer this ^^. But it's a theory so it's in the arc of a possibility allright?

Contrary to a lot of people, I'm not fond of Robb/Jeyne. I think it's clear that he doesn't love her ( I'm at work so I don't have the books in english with me but it's shown in a couple of sentences). He likes her allright but he pretty much married her by obligation. Moral ones and that's it. Counting on Frey to understand that he had to do it in his all Stark-ness (understand thinking that everyone is as noble as his father).

The thing, isn't Jeyne's family versed up in poison, filters and such? I always found it unbelievable that someone as Robb fell for this. I mean yeah he was vulnerable and Jeyne was all kindness and all but it's a leitmotiv: no one understands why Robb did this. Neither Cat, neither Jaime.
I feel complots here and even weird magic. It's my theory. I don't know if we'll ever know but I have this feeling that there's a piece missing from this puzzle.

Either this, either Robb was highly stupid that day. But even if never striked me as stupid. A bit naive yes, young and too hopeful. But never stupid and never careless.

Re: Spoilers in the comment beware!

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Contrary to a lot of people, I'm not fond of Robb/Jeyne. I think it's clear that he doesn't love her ( I'm at work so I don't have the books in english with me but it's shown in a couple of sentences). He likes her allright but he pretty much married her by obligation.

I agree. He likes her, I think, but this is not one of the all-consuming , can't stay away love stories. Even more. It is not LOVE, just affection.

The thing, isn't Jeyne's family versed up in poison, filters and such? I always found it unbelievable that someone as Robb fell for this. I mean yeah he was vulnerable and Jeyne was all kindness and all but it's a leitmotiv: no one understands why Robb did this. Neither Cat, neither Jaime.
I feel complots here and even weird magic. It's my theory. I don't know if we'll ever know but I have this feeling that there's a piece missing from this puzzle.

I like this theory. I would totally agree this was magic or date rape drug or something of the sort. I also feel there is a piece missing. You gave me some hope, actually. I hope the show will go with this explanation which seems to be much more in character for Robb and will not give us "OMPH! He loooooooooved her" romance story (which I am afraid of).

Moral ones and that's it. Counting on Frey to understand that he had to do it in his all Stark-ness (understand thinking that everyone is as noble as his father).

This is a good point too. But couldn't he just shout "I was date raped!!!!!!!" or something?

Either this, either Robb was highly stupid that day. But even if never striked me as stupid. A bit naive yes, young and too hopeful. But never stupid and never careless.

I agree. This is why I always felt so unsettled about this part of the plot. Rob did seem to have strategic thinking even in the books, and then - bam!

Re: Spoilers in the comment beware!

[o-daisy-o.livejournal.com]

I like a lot this theory. I've always thought there was something fishy about the whole Robb/Jeyne affair. But it never occurred to me it could have been somehow realated to magic or poison. It's a good point.

My guess had always been that the Westerling were acting on orders to weaken Robb from the inside, and this is all Lord Twynn's doing. After all didn't they get the royal pardon after the Blody Wedding (if I remember correctly)? And weren't they Lannisters's vassals to begin with? I think they wanted to break apart Robb and the Freys on purpose.

But maybe both the poison theory (to subjugate Robb) and the Lannister secrets' agents-thing are possible. I can't wait to find out.

[geeklee.livejournal.com]

while he may seem to be a man of 30 in the show, i believe his show age is supposed to be 16/17. still well under the control of the head in his pants rather than on his shoulders.

actually at 30 i suppose he could still be under the influence of the head in his pants. so many men of 30 are :)

back to the topic-

while i understand upping the age for modern sensibilities, i think its very hard for today's society to imagine a teenager actively leading an army and behaving as a king. while there have always been boy kings, they are usually portrayed as boys. robb is being written as a man. which is probably why you feel he's older.

i'm not sure how realistic his character is, though. i know that people grew up faster in those days but still a man of 17 should still seem less sure and knowledgeable than a man of 30. and yet he seems to always know what to do and what to say - more so than the much older men around him.

well, except for the westerling decision. serious consequences as a result of that one. but very much the decision of a 17 year old.

i also wonder if the robb/jayne/frey triangle wasn't meant to cause us to ponder ned's choice with jon snow as it has been portrayed so far. or jon's situation. by that i mean i am a believer in r+l=j :)

btw, i don't get the popularity of robb either. book robb is alright and tv robb is alright. neither one is something to write home about for me.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

while he may seem to be a man of 30 in the show, i believe his show age is supposed to be 16/17. still well under the control of the head in his pants rather than on his shoulders.

This is where the show makes me giggle. Everyone (Jaime, for example) are saying "Robb is just a kid!!!" and I am thinking "He looks only few years younger than you, Jaime, what are you talking about?".What I see and that I am supposed to see does not compute in this case.


while i understand upping the age for modern sensibilities, i think its very hard for today's society to imagine a teenager actively leading an army and behaving as a king. while there have always been boy kings, they are usually portrayed as boys. robb is being written as a man. which is probably why you feel he's older.

Robb has several scenes in the books where he is very teen-y. But these scenes aren't in the show.

i'm not sure how realistic his character is, though. i know that people grew up faster in those days but still a man of 17 should still seem less sure and knowledgeable than a man of 30. and yet he seems to always know what to do and what to say - more so than the much older men around him.

Again, they added few scenes in the show, like Robb's speech in the episode 9. In the books he acts like a normal teenager that is very good at the war game. This looks believable in the books.

But yes, is the show it does not make sense to me how a boy of 17 can do all that. And because he does not look even close to 17 , I find that the whole character is a bit hard to believe.


i also wonder if the robb/jayne/frey triangle wasn't meant to cause us to ponder ned's choice with jon snow as it has been portrayed so far. or jon's situation. by that i mean i am a believer in r+l=j :)

I am also a believer of r+l=j. :D. But yes, I think you have a good point here: I think the story with Robb and Jayne is meant to cause us to ponder about Ned's past with Ashara Dayne (who is not Jon's mother I believe, but whom Ned still loved) and

btw, i don't get the popularity of robb either. book robb is alright and tv robb is alright. neither one is something to write home about for me.

I get some moments of "OMPH! Attractive!" with the show's Robb, but every time I remember that Robb is 17 and get that "I can't believe my eyes he is 17" feeling.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I admit, I find Robb more interesting in the show than in the books, where I kind of barely noticed him, but am also kind of bemused by his incredible popularity in the show. Really, he always struck me as...not incredibly bright (I can't
t really recall the reasons, though I remember screaming "You idiot!" in my head when he agreed to send Theon back to Winterfell over Cat's objections), and I always thought the Jeyne bit was him having an attack of teen rebellion or something, and a bit Romeo and Juliet-ish with the "Zomg! Forbidden!" amping a crush that probably would have faded before long into into obsessive "love.' That said, I suspect the show will increase Jeyne's role to have an epic Doomed Love story (you can kind of tell that it's just dying to have some kind of actual Romance without rape or incest or being 15 years after the falling in love part).

I agree about the Renly and loras scene relying on stereotypes. Watching it actually felt like it was lifted from a fanfic and inserted or something.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Yes to your every word and a very good point about Theon. I also remember shouting "NOOOOOOOO!" in my brain.

That said, I suspect the show will increase Jeyne's role to have an epic Doomed Love story (you can kind of tell that it's just dying to have some kind of actual Romance without rape or incest or being 15 years after the falling in love part).

I think this is what is going to happen. They need their ratings and this will be good for the ratings. but I am going to haaaaaaaate it if this happens. Because no way I can put Robb's promise, his future and his people on one scale and Jayne on another and say that the Big Doomed Love overweights it all. Plus, the way I read it in the books Robb did not have a Big love for Jayne, he just liked her.

I agree about the Renly and loras scene relying on stereotypes. Watching it actually felt like it was lifted from a fanfic and inserted or something.

Absolutely.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Naja, I think Show Robb is older, but he's not 30, the actor is 24 and I think the character is supposed to be 18 to 20, which I think is old enough to make his war effort more realistic. And I think it's also age appropriate that he might think with his cock at some point. Robb is crushed by a load of responsibility and he's clearly doing a good job as a leader.

But if someone that young (under 30) would not make a mistake at some point it would be really surprising.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Sorry no edit and I wanted to add that I think the show might even help Robb becoming a more formed character. You can see how the whole leading thing takes his toll on him and to me it would be a very reasonable development that he just wants something for himself not realising just how much doom he's causing.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I googled this again. The actor is born in 1986 which makes him 25 . He looks 30 to my eyes, though.

From game of thrones wiki ( http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Robb_Stark ), Robb is supposed to be 17 in the show (14 in the books). Kill me, but the actor looks 10 years older than 17, this is what confuses me the most, I think.

But if someone that young (under 30) would not make a mistake at some point it would be really surprising. ,

That is absolutely true. but I am still angry with him. :D And it is much more believable for a 14-year old to make a mistake, don't you agree?

[liamtheruiner.livejournal.com]

the "love destroys everything" story is very, very old, actually. tristan and isolde, romeo and juliet, sigurd and brunhilde, fred flintstone and barney rubble...

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

fred flintstone and barney rubble...

Gosh, i was ready to write a long and serious comment on how much I do dislike this type of stories, but you made me laugh so much. :D

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

I agree that the Renly/Loras scene was stereotyped. Like you I really like them as a couple, and liked that they had a scene together - I just wish it hadn't been so clichéd. But maybe they'll get a few non-stereotypical scenes in season two. Though by that time I'll probably be more focused on Brienne. ;)

As for Robb I completely agree. Both the thing with Jeyne and the whole thing with Theon has always struck me as Robb's defining moments, and not in a good way. (That and I've always been a bit sceptical about him leaving his younger, just crippled brother in charge of the largest, most important castle in the North. Now Bran is competent, but still...)Therefore I'm a bit puzzled by his popularity. But hey, we all have our own favourites.

Which is not to say I don't like the Robb-storyline. I do like it, but more for the insights we get into Cat and for the whole doomed tragedy of it all. In addition it also makes apparent that the North are not necessarily the clear cut good guys they first appear to be, and that while honour can be a good thing, holding personal honour over the good of the realm is not a great idea. Sure, Robb does right by Jeyne, but he fails everyone else. I think the reason I really like that particular point is that the problems of honour are so central in Martin's world. (and as a Jaime fan I love the irony that Jaime is one who actually puts the realm above his own personal honour, and is generally loathed for it. Sure, he broke his oath and killed Aerys, but he saved King's Landing)

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

I said, though with less specificity, the same thing about Jaime in a comment to one of queenofthorns' recent posts. Seeming is not always being, you know? Also, I think Varys is being honest when he says he does what he does for the good of the realm. I find him a fascinating character to think about, actually.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I really like your thinking about Robb/Cat/Ned storyline and the problem with honor. (Your thoughts on tragedies are always so much appreciated). I feel this is not something that I have seen mentioned in many places, but I think you are SO RIGHT. I am going to uphold this idea and push it to everyone, if you let me? This is indeed one of the main ASOIF points, something that Martin pushes through so many other characters: The Hound, Tyrion, even Arya (who starts in one place and finishes in a totally different place).

I am really interested to know how this all ends. :D

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

As you know from my reply to you in QoT's lj, I totally agree re: Robb. It's a huge character failing, one that shows how naive he is at best, and how dumb at worst. And like you, I'll be peeved if they try to portray his relationship with Jeyne as twu wuv. But...they'll do what they do.

And ITA re: Renly/Loras. The point was that both men were strong, even if a bit arrogant and naive themselves, and I thought they scene really undercut them in its attempt to make sure everyone knew they were capital-G Gay. They were cliches, and nothing in saying so points to any moral or geographical failings in you.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I think I am just too confused with "My eyes see a man in his late 20 and I am supposed to think he is 17" in relation with Robb. But as you, I won't be too annoyed if they get Brienne right. I do like Robb after all, snd some non-weird romance (even if it not in a bok) will be nice - all book romances are a bit odd. :D

** hugs **

[sophieisgod.livejournal.com]

I personally liked the Renly/Loras scene *shrugs* I mean, I think GoT has a bit of a problem with SEXY EXPOSITION in general (Viserys and Doreah in the bath (although, again, I liked that scene!), Littlefinger talking to Ros and the other prostitute etc), but in that case it felt like a fairly believable shorthand to explain the intimacy between the two characters, necessary in a way that some of the other scenes haven't been, perhaps. I don't especially feel like it was stereotypical - why shouldn't two gay men engage in a bit of manscaping while having a nuanced political discussion? – particularly given that Renly seemed kind of taken aback by the whole thing. Plus I felt like it conveyed a lot of things about their dynamic without having to spell it out in the dialogue; supposedly Renly is the one in the position of power in the relationship, yet he's letting Loras take control of his body in that way.

Re: Robb, I never really cared about him all that much in the books, but Richard Madden's face/acting combo have made me really fond of him. And I think he does have moments where he seems believably young, if not 14 then the late teens I think the show is shooting for - the scene where Catelyn arrives and he's torn between rushing to her and saving face in front of his council, for example.

[dianora77.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with both points in this comment.

[dianora77.livejournal.com]

Perhaps they'll make it into something of a starstruck love, I dunno. Grown men think with their penises most of the time, too. :P

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I hate the starstruck love stories. I think for me, when a man thinks with his penis and choses sex with a woman over his duty, his men and his life I do not like a man like this.

[heartshurt.livejournal.com]

I don't really remember how I felt about Robb in the books, though the fact that I can't remember probably says enough (I really need to re-read these books! But there are so many other books still to read). He has grown immensly on me on the show though, I think Richard Madden is portraying him wonderfully. I can't really explain why I like him, he's just so .. likeable.

I don't think he looks 30 at all though, I can see him being 17/18. And I do think Richard Madden is very attractive ;)

Ugh, Jayne. Even with him being honorful and all that good stuff, he can still be naive and make mistakes. He's still only 17 after all. =/

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I can see some appeal in Richard Madden but I definitely don't get that "OMPH! I am going to space out!" feeling that I do with some other actors (for example, Nikolaj). What I like is all that heroic, "I am a man of duty and honor, etc. etc." stuff. And his talking about the rights of the North. I always appreciate this. :D

But I do have a mental block of "I see a man at least in his late twenties" with him. But I am normally like this, a bit like Syrio . :D I see what I see.

[embitca.livejournal.com]

I may be the wrong person to answer this question, but im my opinion, there are very few attractive men on this show, so Robb is being latched onto because of the slim pickings. There's Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and there's Richard Madden. The rest of them... meh. I don't find Sean Bean attractive. Nor Loras, nor Renly. Jon Snow, I think is downright ugly.

Normally I think Jason Momoa is very good-looking, but not so much on this show, sadly (and now of course he is gone). The actor playing Viserys was quite striking, but of course the character is an unlikeable villian and now dead. So that doesn't leave much of anyone left.

EDit: And of course Robb is not long for this world either. There will be no eye candy left soon :(

And I'm editing again: if you see pics of Madden as himself rather than Robb, he doesn't look anywhere near 30. The beard really ages his look.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Actually, this was my original thought as well. I think Loras is very attractive (but there is not much of him in the show), and Sean Bean is hot IMHO (but is waaaaaaay older than the majority of active fans). Jason momoa is hot, but I think they are overplaying the "he is a SAVAGE" part in the show. Also - does not have long to live and everyone knows it. :D

But Renly and the rest? No. Not attractive. And I am not even saying what I think of Kit. I save it for another rant.

I think I have also ranted about it somewhere, but I feel one of the concepts of the show is to make everything as grungy and as un-pretty as possible (for example, the horrible wigs or limpy unwashed hair don't do any of the actors any favours).

And I'm editing again: if you see pics of Madden as himself rather than Robb, he doesn't look anywhere near 30. The beard really ages his look.

yes, I have seen them and I agree.

[bond-girl.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I can add anything new to the Renly/Loras discussion except to join my voice to someone who said that what are fanfic tropes to us in fandom are often a new thing to the general public. To a slash fanfic writer in me, it felt so darn good to have it out there on TV, like a discreet coming-out of sorts. It was a smidgen campy, very much tongue-in-cheek, characterization heavy. This was the last we saw (though not heard! thanks to Varys) of Loras on the show but the rest of Renly's storyline was considerably more nuanced.

So I have high hopes for S2, now that the writers got the Gay Thing out of their systems. I hope HBO changes the Rainbow in Rainbow Guard to something else because that is just too heavy-handed and a misuse of a culture reference.

About Robb. As I tend to skip the laborious battle descriptions, I barely remembered him from the first and the second books. However, there were a few things on the show (besides Richard Madden's superior bone structure) that make me REALLY get the appeal. It's the 'young wolf in the North' tagline, a king who is neither boy nor man, with all the delicious flaws of someone who is going through a long rite of passage and who is sometimes hanging onto his crown with the skin of his teeth. I understand if it's not everyone's cuppa but it is definitely mine. I haven't read as far as the Jeyne situation but as usual, I'm already subscribing to the love potion conspiracy theory :) The comments in your journal are a mine of good ideas :)

[bond-girl.livejournal.com]

Oh and if your somewhat confrontational convo was at loras_renly, then I'm really sorry if you run into someone opinionated enough to get personal! It's a great crowd there and I would like to keep it this way, so I'll keep a closer eye on things.