The Game of Thrones: one half over already!

[alexandral]

Disclaimer: I had a misunderstanding in one of my previous posts (I might have complained too much and didn't make myself clear), so I felt compelled to write this to explain my positions:

1. I want (and always wanted) "A Song of Ice and Fire" to be adapted into a TV show. I like books adapted into TV and movies, the more the better.

2. Overall, I like HBO's The Game of Thrones, so far my ratings are just under 7/10.

3. I think the fact that I notice and express some shortcomings of the TV show does not make me an "evil complainer" or a "traitor to the cause".

4. I like to discuss differences between the TV show Game of Thrones and the books.

Game of Thrones, episode 5: This was a really good episode Why weren't the first four like this?

I am still not quite sure why we had to watch 3 minutes of Theon Greyjoy's having sex with some nameless person or why we had to see numerous naked breasts.

But my main concern is that the show is attempting to make Cersei much more sympathetic than she is in the books. I generally don't like the way Lena Headey plays Cersei. To start with, she is not beautiful enough (and she has that atrocious wig). But the main thing is: she is much much softer than Cersei I remember from the book. I tell you why I am worried: you know, in the latest books Jaime meets Brienne and Brienne is a total opposite of Cersei. I think they fall in love, but I have seen different opinions on the subject. The last book ends with Jaime in a front of a choice: Cersei or Brienne. May be the choice is not direct, but that what I felt.

Here is my worry: I feel that the way the show is going, with Cersei being so sympathetic, the show might not depict the relationship between Jaime and Brienne in the way I understand it (which is a debatable matter anyways). You know, the emphasis can be shifted towards the relationship between Jaime and Cersei, and I think this is happening. We don't even know who is going to be cast as Brienne! One thing we know is that she is supposed to be ugly. What is they cast her as someone much older (as several other characters)?

And my other worry is that may be the creators of the show know some spoilers about Jaime, Cersei and Brienne from the new book, "A Dance with Dragons"? I know I am a worrier, but here you go.



Other, really short comments:
- I always hated Baelish in the books, but in the show his character is becoming someone I love to hate. Still, the creators of the show are making his character much bigger than in the books, at the expense of other characters.

- The show is making Ned much less sympathetic than he was in the books.

- The tournament scene with Loras, the Mountain and the Hound was fantastic (apart from the horse beheading). Even though I knew the spoilers, I had goose bumps, I was so afraid for Loras. The Mountain is another great casting, so scary.

- I am seriously enjoying the idea of a gay romance between Renly and Loras. This was not in the books, but it is a good addition to the story, fits in with the characters. However, both Loras and Renly are much uglier than they have been described in the books. I also thought that the "gay" scene was overly stereotypical, with emphasis on what can be considered stereotypical "queenly" behaviour.

- Arya chasing cats was such an adorable scene. All Stark kids are really wonderfully cast and joy to watch.

- Not enough Jaime in this episode

I have been thinking that one of the main themes of the series is various physical deformities. This might be a trigger factor for some people, but I think the theme is handled exceptionally well.

Spoilers: Episode 5 of the HBO show

Comments

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

Are people really giving you a hard time over your opinions? How rude!

ITA on your points about Cersei and Renly/Loras. It really bugs me to show Cersei being vulnerable with Robert, talking about how once she cared (or could have - I forget the specifics) and asking if they ever had a chance. I don't mind them making her strength and smarts clear, because she always had those, even if they came out in different ways in the books, but a defining aspect of her character is that Jaime is/was the only man she could ever love. I think this is a real - and not positive - change from the books. And I honestly think Renly's gayness was much more effective as subtext (in the books) than as cliched "text" (in the show). ITA that the cliched queeniness was distracting, not helpful. The whole scene struck me as silly, really. The one thing I appreciate is that it added a stronger justification for Renly to declare himself king, because that still strikes me as one of the weakest points in the book, but I would rather have gotten to that reasoning some other way. And ITA that neither man (especially Loras) is attractive enough, and I thought Renly's sexyface during the blowjob was really dopey looking.

I continue to adore Tyrion, though, and I liked everything at the Aerie. What a truly creepy household that is.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, no! I think it is me who sometimes spurts out all that critical stuff without actually stating my base position. I actually like the show.

but a defining aspect of her character is that Jaime is/was the only man she could ever love.

Do you mean, in the show? As in: no-one else really cared? Or in the books?

Wasn't Prince Rhaegar Cersei's first love in the books?

I honestly wouldn't have minded Renly to be openly gay in the show , but the fact that it was made in such a stereotypical way irked me. It would have been so much nicer if we saw some real attachment between two men instead of two queens talking to each other.

[nutmeg3.livejournal.com]

re: Cersei and Jaime, I was talking about the books. From the time she and Jaime were old enough to "play doctor," so to speak, they were it for each other. (Iirc, they came out of the womb holding on to each other.) I forget the details, but someone caught them diddling each other and split them up, and then they plotted ways to stay together, but just when he joined the Kingsguard at her urging, to be near her, Tywin left for Casterly Rock and took her with him, or something like that. There was a mention somewhere in the books that if she and Robert had ever had a chance, he blew it by calling out Lyanna's name on their wedding night, but nothing like what she was talking about in this ep. So I really think this is a fundamental shift in her character from the books, and it bothers me.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

Oh, I see. Yes, I agree on Jaime/Cersei. It always came across to me that Jaime was her "half" , so to speak, and that she viewed him as such, him and no-one else.

For me it is also worrying that instead of "Evil Cersei plots and gets good Ned murdered" we are getting "Poor misunderstood Cersei! Ned brought it all upon his own shoulders". Ok. I am still worried what is going to be done to Brienne, is she going to be a female version of silly Loras?

[maryxmas.livejournal.com]

the beheading of the horse is quite graphic in the book, too.
I really liked the dialogue between Loras and Renly -- they are a couple truly -- they mess with each other and talk about serious things -- and, surprisingly, so do Robert and Cercei.

and to me Ned is as straightforward as in the book. he is a warrior, not a bandit.

ps.
the scene of Tyrion banging a guy's head inside with a shield almost made me throw up -- as did Jaime's knife in Jory's eye.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I Just wish Loras and Renly were better looking, you know how shallow I am. :D These are two of my faves.

I didn't like the way they both shown to be so effeminate, not the fact that they were talking and messing with each other. Effeminate behaviour is one of stereotypes of gay people , but in the majority if cases gay is not equal effeminate.

I am so-so about Ned. I liked him so much in the book and Sean Bean is one of my favourite actors (I did some of his picspams, too), but for some reason I don't seem to be able to find him as likable in the show. This could be just me, mostly likely.

the scene of Tyrion banging a guy's head inside with a shield almost made me throw up -- as did Jaime's knife in Jory's eye. .

Yes, these were heavy scenes, but for some reason the scene with the horse was the heaviest for me.

How far are you in the books?

[maryxmas.livejournal.com]

they don't seem effeminate to me :) not as cute as they could have been, here I agree with you.

I read the books in Russian translation as soon as they were published, and the last one I read in English -- as soon as the scan appeared online. it was quite a while ago, so I barely remember anything, but my man read them several times, and the last time was half a year ago, (and he has a much better memory than me), so I am using him as a reference :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

They did to me, but this can be subjective.

I have read all the books probably 6 years ago at the time when the last book was out. I thought I forgotten everything but it seems that in general I remember "Who is who" quite well. I did spend some time trying to investigate the family connections when I was reading the books.

I am not going to re-read the series, it is too long. I like it, but in the general frame of things I have some books I like even more.

Who are your favourite characters?

[maryxmas.livejournal.com]

the underdogs :)
Arya, Jon, Brienna, Dayeneris, Tyrion. I was infatuated with Tyrion :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

These are my top 5 favourites too!!!!!!! Add The Hound, and it will be the full list.

I also like Jaime , but I mostly like him WITH Brienne (and this is why I worry a little about her future role in the show).

I love Tyrion . LOVE HIM, and even more in the show. I will be shipping him and Sansa as no tomorrow (if we get to that part)!

[endlessdeep.livejournal.com]

Exactly what you said. Some day people will understand that everyone interprets what they read or see differently. If people could accept that what you write about a subject is your opinion and not fact they might be less inclined to be objectionable.

I am still not quite sure why we had to watch 3 minutes of Theon Greyjoy's having sex with some nameless person or why we had to see numerous naked breasts. Also I am not quite sure why the beheading of the horse had to be so graphic.

What I really thought was unnecessary was the closeup of a partly hairy, partly shaved male nipple. Ew. WTF? Is there some secret meaning behind it? Is it a metaphor for something else? Someone please explain? My questions are facetious of course because if someone can explain this I'll give them a brownie button. lol. I thought they stereotyped the gay relationship as well. Not impressed with this.

In general I don't like "body part" close ups without a face to go with it. I just think "why?". What am I looking at here?

The close up of the eye stabbing and tyrion repeatedly bashing the guy's head were also unnecessary in my opinion.

I can understand the horse. Even though I didn't like it, it shows what type of character Gregor(?) has. And Cat's sister (can't think of her name either, Lysa?) breast feeding her atrocious little whelp with the fake boob, also understandable to show how nutso she is, and also very...awkward. But why the closeup focus on the boob? I think we can "get it" without the close up of the fake boob. The looks on the faces of Tyrion and Cat were priceless though. lulz.

I adore Lena Heady. I don't find her Cersei sympathetic. I find her quietly evil and very two-faced.

I was cheering Ned in this episode. Poor Ned. I find his character just like it is in the books. I love Sean Bean's under-playing of the character.

I agree the Stark kids are cast wonderfully.

I haven't read the entire series of books yet. I'm almost finished with the first book. I've been avoiding spoilers about Ned, but this is ASOIAF we're talking about, so I don't expect any heroic rescue of him. :(

So far Jaimie doesn't interest me one bit. Not in the book, so far, and not in the TV show. The actor who plays him in the series is not my type at all. Which doesn't help. Yes, even after watching this many episodes with Jaimie I'm just like...nothing.

My favorite characters remain Arya, Tyrion, Dany and Eddard. I'm still having a hard time with the actor who plays Jon. He always has this look on his face like a sad puppy that doesn't know what's going on. I think he might get better later in the season though. I'm the opposite of you. lol. I don't mind when a TV series take a while to get going. I don't mind all the slow character building and plot building. I have to say last night's episode was refreshing with all the action. :)

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I think it was mostly my fault for being a little confusing! I find it easier to express what I don't like and may be my posts seem a little too critical.

What I really thought was unnecessary was the closeup of a partly hairy, partly shaved male nipple. Ew. WTF? Is there some secret meaning behind it? Is it a metaphor for something else? Someone please explain?

Absolutely agree with you. I actually have a high tolerance to almost anything (as in sex, blood, gore and body parts), but when it serves the story. What part of the story the hairy nipple serves?

Apparently, there also was a penis in Theon sex scene. I did not notice, but I have seen this discussed in great detail. Again - a PENIS of THEON? What for?

In general I don't like "body part" close ups without a face to go with it.

Me too. Sometimes this can serve the story, when trying to show someone's beauty or strength , and this is probably the only two cases when I think I like it.

The close up of the eye stabbing and tyrion repeatedly bashing the guy's head were also unnecessary in my opinion.

I was really wondering here. Were they trying to make a link here to some future events (I will not spoil), showing that Tyrion also has "his wild side"?

I can understand the horse. ..But why the closeup focus on the boob? I think we can "get it" without the close up of the fake boob. The looks on the faces of Tyrion and Cat were priceless though. lulz.

I am going to agree on the horse. The scene did create that atmosphere of "oh nooooooooo!!!!! Gregor is going to kill ser Loras with his bare hands now!"

But close-ups of the boob was unnecessary IMHO too. I also meant the scene with Baelish in the whore house with the naked breasts of a whore. What is it with the show and naked whores anyways!

Absolutely agree on the Cat and Tyrion faces. This was one of the best moments in the episode.

I was cheering Ned in this episode. Poor Ned. I find his character just like it is in the books. I love Sean Bean's under-playing of the character.

I think it might me my subjective perception. I loved Ned so much in the books that may be it is hard for me to replicate that love now.

I haven't read the entire series of books yet.

I will not spoil you. :D

So far Jaimie doesn't interest me one bit. Not in the book, so far, and not in the TV show. The actor who plays him in the series is not my type at all. Which doesn't help. Yes, even after watching this many episodes with Jaimie I'm just like...nothing.

I didn't like Jaime in the first book too. His story comes into the light much later. I think it is good that the show is showing his character in more detail than the book 1 does, though. He will become an important character later on.

My favorite characters remain Arya, Tyrion, Dany and Eddard. I'm still having a hard time with the actor who plays Jon. He always has this look on his face like a sad puppy that doesn't know what's going on. I think he might get better later in the season though. I'm the opposite of you. lol. I don't mind when a TV series take a while to get going. I don't mind all the slow character building and plot building. I have to say last night's episode was refreshing with all the action. :)

I have a really short attention span. If something takes more than 2 episodes to get going, I usually lose the interest. But this is if I watch weekly: usually two weeks of slow episodes, and I am off. If I marathon something, I become more like you - I can cope with few slow episodes in a row (because in this case weeks become hours :D). This is my preferable way of watching, marathoning. I always marathon "True Blood", for example. But I was too impatient with "Game of Thrones".

I am not 100% in love with Jon yet too. I had a moment in the episode 4 when he was having that cute chat with Sam and then he had his head down and his hair was falling beautifully on his forehead. I had a twinge of attraction.
But in general: I am with you. He looks a bit dumb, quite often

In the show I like Stark's kids the most: Arya, Bran. Sansa, Robb. I never was interested in Robb in the books, but the guy in the show: I like him.

But my favourite overall is Tyrion. I ADORE him.

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

I think the Theon scene was intended to establish his character, just like the Visery-in-bathtub scene. The intention was good, but I don't see any clear reason why the scenes had to be sex scenes? But other than that I think the Theon scene actually worked when it came to establishing who Theon is, which was something that was sorely needed.

As for the Loras/Renly scene I'm a bit ambiguous. I liked that they had a scene together, and I really liked that Loras' hero-worship of Renly came through (because in the books we see no sign of that hero-worship until after Renly has met with Mel's shadow-thingy). But I have no idea why there had to be shaving involved. They could have had the same conversation in bed and no chest wax would have been involved.

As for the change in Cersei I think it does work to some extent. But then again I've never read Cersei as being as in love with Jaime, as Jaime was in love with her. Rather Cersei has always struck me as loving the fact that her and Jaime were so alike. There are several reference in the books to how Cersei dislikes how Jaime's physical change after his looses his hand (shaves his head, grows a beard etc) annoys her, because they no longer resemble each other so much. And so for her it is not just about love, but living through her brother and to some degree controlling him. A form of "them against the world!" attitude that has nothing to do with love or looking out for Jaime, but more about her own self-image. And that is an aspect that is radically different from Brienne, and so I'm not that worried about how Cersei standing in the way for Brienne. If that makes sense?

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I think the Theon scene was intended to establish his character, just like the Visery-in-bathtub scene. The intention was good, but I don't see any clear reason why the scenes had to be sex scenes?

Especially why the scene had to involve me seeing Theon's penis. What were they trying to establish? That he wasn't well-endowed?
But other than that I think the Theon scene actually worked when it came to establishing who Theon is, which was something that was sorely needed.

Yes, we needed a scene with him. I actually remember the books - it took me a while to figure out who Theon was, I kept forgetting him.

As for the Loras/Renly scene I'm a bit ambiguous. I liked that they had a scene together, and I really liked that Loras' hero-worship of Renly came through (because in the books we see no sign of that hero-worship until after Renly has met with Mel's shadow-thingy). But I have no idea why there had to be shaving involved. They could have had the same conversation in bed and no chest wax would have been involved.

I am exactly the same. I liked that we saw more of Loras and Renly then the books gave us. I always felt that both were really important characters that popped up here and there but didn't have much dialogue with anyone.

And I always thought that Loras was delicately described as gay. But why the shaving and the pouting? I really wish they were still STRONG men, because being gay doesn't equal being a pouty princess.

On the tangential note, Loras next to the Hound and the Mountain was so tiny! I loved that moment, this was excellent.


As for the change in Cersei I think it does work to some extent. But then again I've never read Cersei as being as in love with Jaime, as Jaime was in love with her. Rather Cersei has always struck me as loving the fact that her and Jaime were so alike. There are several reference in the books to how Cersei dislikes how Jaime's physical change after his looses his hand (shaves his head, grows a beard etc) annoys her, because they no longer resemble each other so much. And so for her it is not just about love, but living through her brother and to some degree controlling him. A form of "them against the world!" attitude that has nothing to do with love or looking out for Jaime, but more about her own self-image. And that is an aspect that is radically different from Brienne, and so I'm not that worried about how Cersei standing in the way for Brienne. If that makes sense?

Oh, you are so right. I have forgotten all this! But I absolutely agree. But don't you think the show is not showing Cersei this way? You see, I have always viewed her as a totally self-centred person (who sort of has this narcissistic love for her brother), but I don't think this is what I am getting from the show. She feels more as a misunderstood foman who tried to love Robert?

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

Loras next to the Hound and the Mountain was so tiny! I loved that moment, this was excellent.

Oh yes, that was brilliant. In fact everything about that tournament scene was fab. It also made me interested in Sandor for the first time in the series, which was good as I really like him as a character in the books.

She feels more as a misunderstood foman who tried to love Robert?

To a degree, and I see your worries there. Yet at the same time didn't Cersei try to love Robert in the beginning, and then it all ended when he cried out Lyanna's name? In addition the series also gave us the previous scene with Cersei and Joffrey where she says "The truth is what you make it" and "anyone who isn't us is an enemy" - which I think reveal her ruthless side.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

It also made me interested in Sandor for the first time in the series, which was good as I really like him as a character in the books.

I liked the scene with Sansa in the episode 2(?) too, the actor has a really good voice, that rasping voice of The Hound. He is much older than he is supposed to be, but in all the other aspects he fits the character well. Yes, this is one of my favourite book charcaters too.

Some even smaller characters, like Loras, are my favourites as well. I am not yet sure what to think of the show Loras. I liked his smirk. :D

Yet at the same time didn't Cersei try to love Robert in the beginning, and then it all ended when he cried out Lyanna's name? In addition the series also gave us the previous scene with Cersei and Joffrey where she says "The truth is what you make it" and "anyone who isn't us is an enemy" - which I think reveal her ruthless side.

We will see how the future events are going to play out. In the books I never had a feeling that Robert had a chance, I thought it was more of a cersei trying to make him think he did and trying to justify her own actions (infedelity, etc.) However, I thought Rhaegar had a chance (didn't she want to marry Rhaegar? Am I rememebring this correct?), and of course the fact that Lyanna was loved by both Rhaegar and Robert affected Cersei's sanity . I think the statements of the "anyone who isn't us is an enemy" sort made to your son don't say too much good about your sanity.

[baleanoptera.livejournal.com]

Yes, IIRC Cersei was in love with Rheagar and wanted to marry him. Though I also seem to recall that this was partially because she wanted to be queen and powerful, so there is that.

I guess I've always read Cersei as a person incredibly frustrated by being discriminated against on account of her being a woman. At one point in "Feast" doesn't she think of herself as Tywin's only true son or words to that effect? I think a lot of Cersei's actions and thoughts are affected by her desire for the power Westero's society denies her.

that Lyanna was loved by both Rhaegar and Robert affected Cersei's sanity . I think the statements of the "anyone who isn't us is an enemy" sort made to your son don't say too much good about your sanity.

I agree. And I think that scene in the first episode where she tries to stop Robert visiting Lyanna's grave was done very well in regards to her feelings towards Lyanna.

I guess I'm still in the fence about the series version of Cersei. I like that the show is trying to flesh her out and give their own interpretation (as I sometimes felt like she was to one-dimensional in the first books), and at the same time I don't want her to loose that ruthlessness and Lannister pride that are so essentially her.

[alexandral.livejournal.com]

I guess I've always read Cersei as a person incredibly frustrated by being discriminated against on account of her being a woman. At one point in "Feast" doesn't she think of herself as Tywin's only true son or words to that effect? I think a lot of Cersei's actions and thoughts are affected by her desire for the power Westero's society denies her.

I also read her like this. And this is how I always viewed her - like a female version of Lord Tywin.

I guess I'm still in the fence about the series version of Cersei. I like that the show is trying to flesh her out and give their own interpretation (as I sometimes felt like she was to one-dimensional in the first books), and at the same time I don't want her to loose that ruthlessness and Lannister pride that are so essentially her.

Yes, I see few comments here and there saying that this new interpretation gives her depth. To me, she always had depth, in fact all Martin's characters have depth. Only she was an evil character with depth (which is a really difficult character to write). I don't want her to become a morally gray character (as much as I like them), for me her strength was in her unflinching ruthlessness and total lack of weakness.