alexandral (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
alexandral) wrote2011-07-05 01:29 pm
alexandral) wrote2011-07-05 01:29 pm
Thoughts on Jaime and Kingslaying
This is something that always puzzled me : why is everyone , literally everyone hates Jaime for what he did to king Aerys II? I have just re-read some Brienne's chapters where she meets some ordinary people and they say things like: "Jaime Lannister is an evil Kingslayer". Doesn't this seem to be a little unfair? I mean, killing the Mad King that was about to burn up the city was a good thing to do?
However, the cause-effect chain is quite interesting, and I think the answer for the universtal hate of Jaime is actually in the way the events unfolded. Two paragraphs below are taken from Wiki of Ice and Fire and contain the short synopsis of the events:
"Lord Tywin Lannister, who had remained neutral until the Battle of the Trident, marched to the gates of King's Landing with a force of 12, 000 men, claiming loyalty to Aerys II and asking to be let in. Aerys favored the advice of Grand Maester Pycelle over that of his spymaster Varys and opened the gates of the city. The Lannister forces then began to sack the city in Robert's name. Aerys ordered his most recent Hand, the pyromancer Rossart, to ignite the wildfire caches throughout the city, saying, "Let him [Robert] be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes."
Aerys then ordered Jaime Lannister, one of his Kingsguard and Tywin's own son, to kill his father. Instead, Jaime slew Lord Rossart and then murdered Aerys himself on the Iron Throne. Tywin sent his knights Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch to deal with the rest of the royal family, securing the throne for Robert and proving that House Lannister had forsaken the Targaryens forever. Gregor killed the baby crown prince Aegon Targaryen while his mother watched, and then proceeded to rape and murder Princess Elia herself. Amory dragged princess Rhaenys from under her father's bed and killed her. When Eddard Stark arrived shortly thereafter, he found Jaime seated on the Iron Throne and Aerys's corpse slumped below it. Tywin Lannister presented the bodies of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys as tokens of his fealty, laid out beneath the Iron Throne. The resulting argument led to Eddard Stark riding out alone to finish the war in the south. "
From this, Jaime's killing of the Mad King can be viewed as a part of the bigger betrayal by Lord Tywin. This resulted in sack of King's Landing: babies murdered, women raped, etc. So I think it is easy to understand that the onlookers take the event as a whole, and instead of dividing it into "who did what" have a negative perception of the event. From what we know of Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch, the whole city must have suffered rapes and killings. Even more, King Aerys order to burn the city was issued after the sacking of the city already started, so in the cause-event chain, the sacking of the city is the beginning of everything. But this I think is less relevant - not many people seem to know that Aerys intended to burn the city (but unfortunately this is the main argument for Jaime's actions).
As to Jaime, I think he did the right thing by killing Aerys and his pyromancer. Some can argue that there was a chance for Jaime to imprison the Mad King, but if this would have happened, the King Arys would have been killed by Ser Gregor only a little later. There was no way for the King to be out of this alive.
But is Jaime clear of any blame for the Sack of King's Landing? I don't think so. He was, after all, an accessory, as Jaime's murder of the Mad King was an integral part of the events. And in the mind of ordinary people he was the son of Lord Tywin , the man behind the Sack.
What I am trying to say is that whatever I might think of killing the mad King Aerys II (kill him, I say :D) , the events are much more complex than that and the King's death is viewed in people's mind as a part of the whole "rape and kill" event that took place in King's Landing. Which, obviously, was horrific..
In particular, it is clear why Ned Stark was so angry with Jaime: he sees Jaime on the Iron Throne, the King dead. It is not clear if the bodies of the family were already laid out in the front of the Iron Throne, but even if they were not, they would be shortly later... Ned , obviously, was not pleased with this (in fact, the killing of the Royal family is something that will haunt him for years) and the argument between him and Lannisters resulted from here.
It is not clear if painting everyone with the same brush is the right thing to do, but it is a natural thing that happens so easily. Plus, purely objectively, Jaime was an accomplice of Lord Tywin (he was there, he killed the King, he did nothing to stop other atrocities), and by proxy, an accomplice of Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch.
Hmm, everything seems so complex! In short, I think poor Jaime is painted with the same brush as Lord Tywin here, and it is interesting that at the end, he is maimed and tortured by his father's people, the same people that did the Sack of King's Landing. The circle is completed. Jaime has paid the price - his right hand, the same hand that killed the Mad King
However, the cause-effect chain is quite interesting, and I think the answer for the universtal hate of Jaime is actually in the way the events unfolded. Two paragraphs below are taken from Wiki of Ice and Fire and contain the short synopsis of the events:
"Lord Tywin Lannister, who had remained neutral until the Battle of the Trident, marched to the gates of King's Landing with a force of 12, 000 men, claiming loyalty to Aerys II and asking to be let in. Aerys favored the advice of Grand Maester Pycelle over that of his spymaster Varys and opened the gates of the city. The Lannister forces then began to sack the city in Robert's name. Aerys ordered his most recent Hand, the pyromancer Rossart, to ignite the wildfire caches throughout the city, saying, "Let him [Robert] be king over charred bones and cooked meat. Let him be the king of ashes."
Aerys then ordered Jaime Lannister, one of his Kingsguard and Tywin's own son, to kill his father. Instead, Jaime slew Lord Rossart and then murdered Aerys himself on the Iron Throne. Tywin sent his knights Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch to deal with the rest of the royal family, securing the throne for Robert and proving that House Lannister had forsaken the Targaryens forever. Gregor killed the baby crown prince Aegon Targaryen while his mother watched, and then proceeded to rape and murder Princess Elia herself. Amory dragged princess Rhaenys from under her father's bed and killed her. When Eddard Stark arrived shortly thereafter, he found Jaime seated on the Iron Throne and Aerys's corpse slumped below it. Tywin Lannister presented the bodies of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys as tokens of his fealty, laid out beneath the Iron Throne. The resulting argument led to Eddard Stark riding out alone to finish the war in the south. "
From this, Jaime's killing of the Mad King can be viewed as a part of the bigger betrayal by Lord Tywin. This resulted in sack of King's Landing: babies murdered, women raped, etc. So I think it is easy to understand that the onlookers take the event as a whole, and instead of dividing it into "who did what" have a negative perception of the event. From what we know of Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch, the whole city must have suffered rapes and killings. Even more, King Aerys order to burn the city was issued after the sacking of the city already started, so in the cause-event chain, the sacking of the city is the beginning of everything. But this I think is less relevant - not many people seem to know that Aerys intended to burn the city (but unfortunately this is the main argument for Jaime's actions).
As to Jaime, I think he did the right thing by killing Aerys and his pyromancer. Some can argue that there was a chance for Jaime to imprison the Mad King, but if this would have happened, the King Arys would have been killed by Ser Gregor only a little later. There was no way for the King to be out of this alive.
But is Jaime clear of any blame for the Sack of King's Landing? I don't think so. He was, after all, an accessory, as Jaime's murder of the Mad King was an integral part of the events. And in the mind of ordinary people he was the son of Lord Tywin , the man behind the Sack.
What I am trying to say is that whatever I might think of killing the mad King Aerys II (kill him, I say :D) , the events are much more complex than that and the King's death is viewed in people's mind as a part of the whole "rape and kill" event that took place in King's Landing. Which, obviously, was horrific..
In particular, it is clear why Ned Stark was so angry with Jaime: he sees Jaime on the Iron Throne, the King dead. It is not clear if the bodies of the family were already laid out in the front of the Iron Throne, but even if they were not, they would be shortly later... Ned , obviously, was not pleased with this (in fact, the killing of the Royal family is something that will haunt him for years) and the argument between him and Lannisters resulted from here.
It is not clear if painting everyone with the same brush is the right thing to do, but it is a natural thing that happens so easily. Plus, purely objectively, Jaime was an accomplice of Lord Tywin (he was there, he killed the King, he did nothing to stop other atrocities), and by proxy, an accomplice of Ser Gregor and Amory Lorch.
Hmm, everything seems so complex! In short, I think poor Jaime is painted with the same brush as Lord Tywin here, and it is interesting that at the end, he is maimed and tortured by his father's people, the same people that did the Sack of King's Landing. The circle is completed. Jaime has paid the price - his right hand, the same hand that killed the Mad King
no subject
that is why he is so hated. if he had been part of the opposing force or just plainly, not a member of the king's inner circle, things would probably be seen differently.
i think jaime's situation is a perfect example of what grrm is trying to tell us. things aren't clear cut. things aren't always what they seem and people do bad things for good reasons and good things for bad reasons.
i also don't think jaime lost his hand as payment for killing the king. that would be too "good triumphs over evil". i think he lost his hand to force him to see things differently. had he kept his hand, i doubt his character would change as greatly as we are seeing. however, the people of westeros may see it as justice served.
but until he does something equally as shocking, (and i have no doubt that he will!) he will be called kingslayer by the people. the people don't know how evil aerys was. only that he was killed by his guard. isn't brutus forever known for killing caeser?
btw, i just finished reading a chapter where victarion battles. yes, i can see all the swash buckling you described in your last post. i agree, they do seem very interesting.
no subject
I agree, but I think this is a bit unfair, because this WAS the right thing. But I loved your comparison with Brutus - Caesar did many bad things, but Brutus still is the household name for an evil person! It is just the way it is.
i think jaime's situation is a perfect example of what grrm is trying to tell us. things aren't clear cut. things aren't always what they seem and people do bad things for good reasons and good things for bad reasons.
Yes, I agree, and also GRRM show us how good things that do do not necessarily end up well? For example, In Jaime/King Aerys's case: Rhaegar meant to do some reforms (most likely, take the throne from Aerys) after he is back from the battle. For Westeros as the whole this would have been THE BEST, not the civil war, dead children and raped women.
i also don't think jaime lost his hand as payment for killing the king. that would be too "good triumphs over evil". i think he lost his hand to force him to see things differently. had he kept his hand, i doubt his character would change as greatly as we are seeing. however, the people of westeros may see it as justice served.
I don't see it as "payment", just one of those cruel jokes of fate that Martin is so fond of. Don't you think the symmetry is interesting? I am sure he (Martin) did it on purpose.
but until he does something equally as shocking, he will be called kingslayer by the people. the people don't know how evil aerys was.
The thing is, the people of Westeros probably didn't care too much when and if Ned's father was burned alive. Which is another typical thing.
btw, i just finished reading a chapter where victarion battles. yes, i can see all the swash buckling you described in your last post. i agree, they do seem very interesting.
Heeeeeeeee! I am so so glad you are interested too. Yes, the sea battles!!